hacks

In 2021, when HBO Max’s “Hacks” first introduced us to fading Vegas comic Deborah Vance (Jean Smart), we briefly met Vance’s hyper-devoted young talent manager Jimmy LuSaque Jr. (Paul W. Downs) and Kayla Schaeffer (Megan Stalter), the braying, inept assistant foisted upon him. Over the years this turbulent pairing found its groove, opening their own agency while Kayla discovered boundaries (sort of). By “Hacks’” fifth and final season, which concluded this spring, a growing Jimmy-Kayla fan base was clamoring for a spinoff. “We’re not doing it, but I wish,” says Stalter as she sits beside Downs during a video call from Hudson Yards in Midtown Manhattan. “I think it would work.”

These days, Stalter, who is nominated for supporting actress in a comedy, is making her Broadway debut as the campily reimagined Mary Todd Lincoln in Cole Escola’s “Oh, Mary!” Meanwhile, Downs, who is also co-creator, co-showrunner, writer and director on “Hacks,” is nominated for supporting actor, writing and comedy series (as executive producer). Is there a dream of a future project in which he wears just one hat? “I love doing all the jobs,” says Downs, who started out as a writer-performer. “But I’d love to do a superhero so that I could just work on my nutrition, my fitness and my lines.”

Paul, one early Megan sighting was her stand-up act at Echo Park’s Little Joy. What about her made you think you’d found your Kayla?

Downs: She’s so singular and funny. It’s like stream of consciousness and yet also material. We’d written the part before we’d seen Meg, but [after seeing] her in person, I came back to my co-creator, Jen Statsky, and I said, “It’s hers to lose.” There’s something about her that’s fearless, uninhibited.

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Meg, correct me if I’m wrong, but your first “Hacks” audition involved a dark, blurry self-tape.

Stalter: It wasn’t that well shot. My brother was filming, and he does a good job, but his apartment in New York was really slanted and there’s lots of dogs running around. I was in a weird outfit. And that’s where I did my self-tape.

Was submitting a bad self-tape part of a strategy to land the role?

Stalter: I didn’t know [the tape] was bad until years later when I watched it. [Laughs] I was a really experienced performer — I’d done stand-up and improv for nine, eight years. But I wasn’t experienced with auditioning. This part was the first thing I ever read where I was like, “I can see myself in this.” I really, really wanted it. I really tried hard to prepare for the audition.

When did it become clear that a Kayla/Jimmy scene has its own oscillating frequency?

Downs: Even before we started, there was just inherent chemistry. I think we just really tickled each other. But, not, I mean, physically.

Stalter and Downs with Earl Brown, right, in “Hacks.”

When Jimmy is passionately advocating for something and Kayla is in the same frame, she’s often gesticulating, scrunching up her face or emitting noises like “pffffft.” But it never comes off as scene-stealing. How? Why?

Stalter: I can’t help but do it. Kayla’s so expressive. Even if I’m not talking, my face is doing a lot. Kayla can’t hide her feelings.

Downs: To know when not to derail something is a very hard thing to do. But Meg is a true comedian in that she understands not only how to improvise within the lane of the scene, but also the give and take.

Stalter: You’re going to make me cry.

Downs: She gets the comedy, the music of it. It’s like Mozart.

Stalter: [sob-choked voice] Stop. I’m not Mozart. You’re Mozart. And if I’m Mozart, then you’re Beethoven. And I don’t know why I’m crying.

Megan Stalter. (David Urbanke / For The Times)

In comedies, personal reps are always outrageous hustlers. Why take on the challenge of finding laughs in a manager who instead is sensitive, kindhearted?

Downs: We wanted to subvert what you’ve seen on TV before in terms of a manager. There’s also so many big personalities on the show. You need a counterbalance to that. One of the reasons we started to lean more and more into Jimmy working hard, being earnest, doing the right thing, is because he was in some moments the voice of the audience, the person that was grounded [amid] the chaos around him.

Was there a specific moment when it dawned on the “Hacks” team that Jimmy and Kayla deserved more airtime?

Downs: It was certainly something we felt. There was so much feedback. At a certain point, we were seeing people online saying, “Where are Jimmy and Kayla in this episode?” “Hacks” is about duos, but it was this particular duo that people really responded to. And then executives started to come and visit on days we were shooting. There were those kinds of little signals that happened.

True or false? When Meg graduated to series regular in Season 3, Paul insisted she be paid the same amount of money as him.

Stalter: [Surprised] Who told you that? Who told you that? [leans over and puts her head on Downs’ shoulder] That’s so nice. Thank you!

Downs: I’ve never said this before, but it was important to me that Meg and I had parity. So I said, “I don’t want to be paid more than her.” You can’t have Jimmy without Kayla. Or you can. But it won’t be as funny.

Stalter: Well, the first season I was paying to be on the show. [Laughs]

Downs: Yeah, we charged. So I felt bad.

Paul W. Downs. (David Urbanke / For The Times)

Who came up with the idea of using your red carpet appearances to send up celebrity culture? The costumes alone!

Downs: I’ll speak for myself, but [near the end of our final season] I started to get scared about not performing with Meg. And it was thrilling and exciting. It’s like doing improv and sketch when you first started. It’s so fun.

A highlight: Striking poses in orange leather ensembles identical to the matching attire worn by Timothée Chalamet and Kylie Jenner at the “Marty Supreme” premiere.

Stalter: It’s my favorite idea, but it wasn’t mine.

Downs: [“Hacks” producer] Genevieve Aniello said, “You guys should do something ‘Marty Supreme.’ Look at these outfits.’” And Meg was bold enough to be like, “We should do it at the Critics Choice Awards.” And I was like, “That’s in six days. That’s insane.” And Meg was like, “We’re going to get it done.”

Was there any blowback?

Stalter: We were at the SAG Awards and we walked past Timothée and I said, [singsongy voice] “Hey, it’s us…” And he goes, “Oh, should we get a picture?” He was so nice. But I then realized that he thought we came up for a picture.

Downs: But we weren’t, we were just walking to our seats. [Laughs] That night his publicist came over and showed us her phone. She’d sent him a photograph of us and he’d written back “incredible.”

Stalter: It was in lowercase.

Downs: It wasn’t screaming “INCREDIBLE,” just “incredible.” I said, “Oh good, he’s not upset.” And she was like, “No, he loves it.”

Stalter: I think he probably never does all caps.

Downs: That’s real star power.

(David Urbanke / For The Times)

Narin Flanders hit le road with her family, stopping off at Disneyland and Eurocamp as part of a tour of the country that began with Brittany Ferries and ended with Le Shuttle

There are plenty of good reasons to swap flying for a driving holiday this summer: airline prices are creeping up, airport strikes are planned in several European hub cities and rumblings about jet fuel availability with the ongoing issues in the Strait of Hormuz.

However, why my family and I finally took the plunge, after months of reading about roadtrips online, was a reason much closer to home. As a family of four allergic to the concept of travelling light, the idea of being able to fill our Kia Sportage with everyone’s (admittedly often non-essential) essentials and travel to a few different places in one trip was a tempting prospect.

So we took the plunge and put together an itinerary, including a bit of something for everybody. We started by getting on a Brittany Ferry at Portsmouth, travelling five hours to Caen and then two hours cross-country to a Eurocamp in Domaine des Ormes, Brittany.

Do you have a travel story to share? Email webtravel@reachplc.com

We started with four days of Center Parcs style, living at a fraction of the price of a hotel. Swimming, ziplines, and playgrounds were aplenty (along with unlimited wifi – it wasn’t all Swallows and Amazons ). Then we meandered across to Le Mans as a treat for my husband and I, who are both major racing fans.

From the hallowed tarmac, we headed towards the capital to visit Disneyland Paris. After two full days at the European House of the Mouse, soaking up the new Adventure World Park as well as fulfilling all my son’s and my Marvel nerd dreams, we took Le Shuttle home.

While we were definitely nervous about driving abroad, what I realised quickly was that Gemini could answer lots of questions and even help plot the itinerary, right down to recommending great towns between our main destinations with things to do with the kids.

Planning ahead allowed us to get organised with essentials. In France, there’s a lot to consider to stay road legal. All cars driving in France need to have a safety kit in the boot in case of an emergency by law. They’re easily bought from Amazon for around £20, although make sure to buy extra high viz jackets if needed – everyone in the car needs their own.

Meanwhile, an Emovis tag is a £9 Bluetooth gadget that you can place on your dashboard and then just drive through tolls and be billed afterwards. It arrived in the UK in plenty of time for our trip, and we loved not having to faff with coins or payment cards at tolls along the way.

Cars driving in major cities that have been designated low-emission zones also need a Crit’Air sticker. These cost €4.71 (£4) including delivery and can be ordered from the French transport ministry – although beware the scam sites that come up on Google suggesting you order through them at a higher price. Cars without a Crit’Air can be fined €68, so if you think you’re going to stray into low-emission zones, it’s worth getting one for peace of mind.

While, of course, driving in France involves getting used to being on the wrong side of the road, once we were actually there, the experience was largely stress-free. I’d say French drivers are better at using motorways properly than we are – middle lane hogs didn’t seem to be much of a thing.

There are some differences, though. Notably, the responsibility for drivers to give way to cars joining the motorway, so remembering to move over took some getting used to. We were relieved to find Google Maps worked effectively everywhere we went, so it’s definitely worth paying for roaming data or picking up a temporary SIM from brands like Lebara or Smarty that include it free.

While a driving holiday was slightly out of our comfort zone, it turned into a fun family adventure we’d absolutely do again.

As well as the joys of the individual stops – and surprise diversions along the way, including discovering an unassuming restaurant with steak frites so epic it has become the stuff of family legend – we found, much to my surprise, that the time spent in the car watching the French landscape go by became part of the fun.

At home we’d be firmly in ‘are we there yet?’ territory, but a family Spotify playlist sharing our favourite songs and regular stops at French petrol stations for snacks made the drive as much a part of the adventure as everything else.

Book it

Narin stayed at the Domaine des Ormes Eurocamp. Currently, a four night stay for a two bedroom lodge through Eurocamp starting on Monday, July 20 is £975. For the October half term, Eurocamp is £289.64 for four nights.

The cost of taking a car on Le Shuttle starts at £69, and £89 for Brittany Ferries.

This article contains spoilers for the series finale of “Hacks.”

After five seasons and (thus far) 12 Emmys, “Hacks” has come to an end. The story of how Deborah Vance (Jean Smart), a 70-something comedian of the Joan Rivers type, and Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder), a prickly 20-something comedy writer, came together to resurrect both their careers was a roller coaster ride of intergenerational judgment, wins, setbacks, ruthless behavior, personal growth, power reclamation and much general hilarity.

Deborah sees Ava as entitled and self-righteous, Ava sees Deborah as washed-up and boring. Eventually, of course, they realize they are kindred spirits who do their best work together.

In Season 5, Deborah attempts yet another comeback. Having walked off her late-night show rather than fire Ava in Season 4, she is determined to rewrite her premature obituary by playing Madison Square Garden. When that too is snatched away, she pivots (with much difficulty and hilarity, including a show-stopping monologue by Laurie Metcalf’s tour manager Weed) to Central Park, where she is finally allowed a moment of glory, basking in the adulation of applauding thousands.

But that is not the end of “Hacks.” In the final episode, Deborah reveals she has cancer and rather than undergo treatment, she is choosing to “go out on top” with the aid of a Zurich clinic. She asks Ava to accompany her, after they take a girls trip to Paris. After an emotional meltdown, Ava agrees, hoping to persuade Deborah to change her mind. She does, but only after Deborah realizes that she cannot bear to walk away from the jokes she could write about dying. And so the show ends, with the two women walking arm in arm, first in Paris and then in Las Vegas, working on Deborah Vance’s final show.

Here, Times TV and culture critics Robert Lloyd and Mary McNamara discuss the ending, and legacy, of “Hacks.”

Deborah, left, decides she doesn’t want to get treatment for cancer despite Ava’s protests. Deborah changes her mind when she realizes she could write jokes about dying.

(HBO Max)

Mary McNamara: Hey there, Robert; are you as devastated as I am that we have no more “Hacks” to look forward to? The only solace I can find is the news that creators Lucia Aniello, Paul W. Downs and Jen Statsky are planning to release a DVD box set of the series. And the possibility that there could be a movie sequel — I for one want to see Deborah Vance’s death tour, especially since you know she’ll beat the odds and survive.

Seriously, though, sad as I am to contemplate life without “Hacks,” I am equally thrilled that the show so thoroughly stuck its landing. Finales are always a crap shoot and I appreciated how this season managed to show growth and cosmic justice while never tipping into treacle. I love that everyone ended on a win — including Marty! (Christopher McDonald) — and I didn’t even mind that suddenly Deborah had cancer (what?), was choosing assisted suicide (double what?) or that we were whisked to Paris (sure, I guess, why not?) because it made just enough narrative sense to set up Deborah’s decision to live because she just couldn’t leave good material on the table. “I may not have 30 years, but I do have one more hour,” may be the best line from a TV finale ever.

It is too easy to think of people like Deborah as clawing back their careers for fame, validation or money rather than a deep and essential love of their art. Having Deborah decide to prolong her life with chemo because she could not resist mining this final seam of comedic gold was a coup de grace.

What did you think?

Robert Lloyd: Hail, Mary. Reviewing the first-season finale, I wrote that the series was at heart a romantic comedy. And though many timely points were made along the way about artificial intelligence, the fate of late-night television and the awfulness of rich jerks who control media companies — Deborah’s Madison Square Garden show was undermined by the network head she named on national television in her resignation speech — the show asserted itself as a love story once again in the end. Where earlier seasons had depended on creating friction between Deborah and Ava, this one was mostly of concord, their only real clash being Deborah’s decision, introduced late in the season, to end her life (in a clean, posh way); her climactic change of heart spared us a medical tearjerker, but, believe me, I shed plenty of tears along the way. Unlike most seasons of “Hacks,” the fifth and final was orchestrated very much as a feel-good experience — “Ted Lasso” has nothing on it. A fairy tale, almost, as you point out, full of fairy-tale endings and plot points that were as good as magic. It could be contrived and improbable and old-fashioned in its triumphs snatched from the jaws of defeat, and I completely loved it.

Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) didn’t get the Madison Square Garden show she imagined, but she did get one at Central Park.

(HBO Max)

McNamara: The series had a lot to say about a lot of things (including vengeful power brokers/network executives) that feel particularly pointed now. But I deeply appreciated that while underlining the real obstacles Deborah and Ava faced, the writers showcased and explored how the bad choices each women had made, and defended, also contributed to their situations. Obviously having the great Jean Smart in the driver’s seat helped a lot — she revealed the woman beneath the diva even in Deborah’s most outrageous actions. The writers did not shy away from calling attention to the blatant sexism female comedians faced (and continue to face) or how the “woke” women of Ava’s generation are often able to see that kind of injustice more clearly.

It was, as you say, more rom-com than morality play, and rom-coms are often based on discovering that the differences that initially divide are too often based on, well, to put it in its original form, pride and prejudice. So while there was some hilarious and spot-on commentary about intergenerational miscommunication, there was also a clear message of how important it is for people with vastly different experiences to listen to, and learn from each other, which also feels incredibly important at this moment in time, especially given the show’s essential, and deeply human, respect for creative work. What motivated Deborah and Ava, and virtually every character in “Hacks” — agent Jimmy (Downs), his assistant Kayla (Megan Stalter) and later Randi (Robby Hoffman); Deborah’s staff, including Marcus (Carl Clemons Hopkins), Damien (Mark Indelicato) and Josefina (Rose Abdoo) — was a belief in the importance, and difficulty, of the creative process. It’s something that is rarely, if ever, the work of a single individual — as Deborah finally acknowledges at the opening of the Diva casino. Or as Laurie Metcalf’s Weed makes clear in her hilarious monologue before the Central Park gig.

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1. Creativity isn’t the work of a single individual: Damien (Mark Indelicato), Marcus (Carl Clemons-Hopkins) and Deborah (Jean Smart) at work on the casino. (HBO Max) 2. Deborah’s crew at her Central Park show. (HBO Max)

Lloyd: In a way Deborah’s speech summed up what we’d already been seeing through an especially generous season that served as “Hacks’” tribute to itself and its people. It was a party to which most every significant and many minor characters were invited, including Metcalf and McDonald; Luenell as comedian Miss Loretta; Poppy Liu as Deborah’s personal blackjack dealer, Kiki; Jane Adams as Ava’s mother, Nina; J. Smith-Cameron as Deborah’s estranged sister, Kathy; and Kaitlin Olson as Deborah’s daughter, DJ, who finally got her mom to partner with her on “The Amazing Race” and was allowed to sell her detachable earrings on QVC.

Gifts were distributed widely, including a previously unseen interview with Deborah’s late husband and co-star, Frank (Peter Strauss), giving her credit for their success — credit he had previously accepted for himself — and thus removing a giant thorn that drove the early plot. These kind-hearted acts of closure were performed both for the benefit of these very real, made-up people, and for We the Viewers, who have made them our family. Declarations, or at least demonstrations of love, were abundant, not merely between Deborah and Ava, with the characters acting as our proxies, feeling what we want them to feel, and what we feel for them ourselves. (There are moments this year when Einbinder — whose brilliance Smart could seem to outshine, but who was never less than an equal partner — absolutely killed me, just in the tender way she gazed upon Deborah.) That’s why it’s so hard to let go of a show like this, even when we know it’s time to say goodbye. You can only stretch an arc so far before it breaks.

McNamara: You’re right, of course. But I still want to see the “Hacks” movie.