A mutant killer baby. Lampshades and pickle jars that come alive. Sinister sewers. A demonic clown that preys on children.
HBO Max’s “It: Welcome to Derry,” the latest adaptation of Stephen King’s epic 1986 novel about a deadly clown named Pennywise, has already scared up a lot of buzz since its Oct. 26 premiere with its mix of evil events and nightmarish images.
The first episode featuring Robert Preston warning “Ya Got Trouble” via the classic musical “The Music Man” is an ominous introduction to the subsequent terrors. Gruesome sequences revolving around birth in the first two episodes will likely make several viewers cover their eyes. (The second episode drops Friday on HBO Max in time for Halloween, and it will air in its usual 9 p.m. PT Sunday slot on HBO.)
A prequel to 2017’s “It” and 2019’s “It: Chapter Two” — both directed by Andy Muschietti — the new drama is set in 1962 in the fictional small town of Derry, Maine. Bill Skarsgård, who played Pennywise in the films, will reprise his role during the season.
The large ensemble of child actors and adults features several Black characters, including Air Force Maj. Leroy Hanlon (Jovan Adepo); his wife Charlotte (Taylour Paige), a civil rights activist in a Jackie Kennedy pillbox hat; and son Will (Blake Cameron James). Also featured is Hank Grogan (Stephen Rider), the town’s theater projectionist, and his teen daughter Ronnie (Amanda Christine).
Developed by Muschietti, his sister Barbara Muschietti and Jason Fuchs, the creators have prioritized increasing the intensity of the films. But the Muschietti siblings add that they are also incorporating certain messages into the mayhem. Many of the Black characters face bigotry and resistance in the predominantly white town that echo challenges that people of color currently face.
“Stephen is a master of weaving these issues into his stories, and it’s impossible to think of doing one of his stories without having that texture front and center,” Barbara Muschietti said.
The Muschiettis, in a video call, discussed diving deeper into the story of Pennywise, getting their young cast to act like kids from the 1960s, and what gives them nightmares. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Siblings Barbara Muschietti and Andy Muschietti on the set of HBO’s “It: Welcome to Derry.”
(Brooke Palmer / HBO)
How soon after the two “It” movies did the idea of a deeper dive into the world of Pennywise come about?
Andy Muschietti: The novel was the inspiration. There are all these enigmas still lingering, enigmas intentionally left unresolved in the book. Part of the greatness of the novel is that you finish 1,200 pages and at the end, you still have no idea what “It” is and what it wants. It’s all speculation. We had conversations with Bill about how great it would be to do an origin story of Bob Gray, this cryptic character, and give him the opportunity to play the human side, the man behind the clown. It’s about completing the puzzle and uniting the stories that lead one to another, creating a story with the final purpose of getting to this conclusive event, which is the creation of Pennywise, the incarnation of evil.
Barbara Muschietti: Once the idea start percolating, we got in touch with Mr. King and he loved the idea. At the beginning of the pandemic we went to (then-Warner Bros. TV chief) Peter Roth. He bought it in the room and we’ve been on it ever since. Not a day of rest.
“The Music Man” plays a prominent role in the first episode, and it gets dark pretty quickly. I’m a huge fan of that movie, and I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to look at that joyful musical the same way again.
Andy Muschietti: I actually wanted us to create a musical ourselves that would pretend to be a movie from 1962. But we would have spent so much money and energy. So we started a quest for the right musical. “The Music Man” was made by Warner Bros. in 1962, and it’s about someone coming to a small town not unlike Derry, talking about trouble, trouble. And it just seemed to fit.
Barbara Muschietti: We also hope a lot of younger people will be curious and go see “The Music Man.”
What is the superpower of “It” that makes it a story that keeps giving and giving?
Andy Muschietti: There are a lot of things people connect to. One of them is childhood. Most of us cherish those years as being full of magic and imagination. We’ve all been children and we’ve all been afraid of something. The novel is a testament to the virtues of childhood, and those virtues normally disappear when you become an adult. Arguably the adults are always the enemy in the world of ‘It.’”
Apart from the clown, there’s a whole mythology that has yet to be connected. My purpose in this series is to reveal the iceberg under the water.
Black characters, including Hank (Stephen Rider), Ronnie (Amanda Christine), Leroy (Jovan Adepo) and Charlotte (Taylour Paige) play central roles in HBO’s “It: Welcome to Derry.”(Brooke Palmer / HBO)
You could not have planned the timing of the show coming on, but it seems like the topical issues addressed in this show, like bigotry, have a relevance to what’s going on in the country today.
Andy Muschietti: What’s going on is not new. It’s just found a new expression. It has been going on and on in cycles. We have this illusion that things are good, but around the corner is another dictator trying to come. We came from Argentina, and we don’t have the kind of racial tension that America has had for hundreds of years. Most of Stephen’s books are a song to empathy in general, and denouncing injustice everywhere. It is important to show, especially in an era where some people in the country are trying to delete history.
Barbara Muschietti: Sadly, these horrors keep haunting us, and racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia is still sadly a human condition, needing to find someone below you that you can punch. Yes, our history makes us a little more sensitive. We live in the United States, it’s a country we love, but it is surprising …
Andy Muschietti: Alarming.
Barbara Muschietti: … that more people are not more concerned.
Andy Muschietti: It’s the fog that Stephen King was talking about. People, basically out of fear, look the other way, trying to suppress things they see, and forget. It’s all part of the same reflection.
It’s immediately obvious that some horrific things will be happening in this show, even more so than the films. The imagery is really nightmarish.
Andy Muschietti: Being a shape-shifter is the thing which keeps giving and giving, and there was a clear intention for us to raise the volume of intensity. You need to meet the expectations of the audience — they don’t want to see more of the same. And we are also dealing with a different time when the collective fears were different because of the social and political situation of that era — the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis — was just around the corner. Then there’s social unrest and segregation.
Barbara Muschietti: I’d like to say it’s all very cathartic. We’re very nice people. I swear.
A demon baby birthed in Episode 1 is among the monsters seen in “Welcome to Derry.”
(HBO)
The show also has a great feel and look to it when it comes to depicting the 1960s.
Andy Muschietti: There was a lot of instinctive respect and attention to accuracy, aesthetically and spiritually. It was the true work of a team in every department, the same folks who had worked on the movies. There was also the research from the writers.
Most of the cast members are kids who did not live in that era. How do you communicate that era and feel to a young cast?
Andy Muschietti: There is a lot of talking. Stephen King knows a lot about this because he was a kid in the 1950s. The book is so rich in detail. We have Ben Perkins, who is a child actor coach. And there is imagination. These kids like to play and at this age, they thrive when you don’t put a lot of restrictions on them. The only thing that went overboard was the cursing.
Barbara Muschietti: That’s one thing that Stephen came back to us with. “There’s too many f—.” We also send the kids with Ben who basically sets up a camp — a bicycle riding camp, a swimming camp, stuff like that which kids in 2024 did not have access to. We’ve been doing that since 2016 very successfully. Because of all of this, all these kids have an incredible bond. They’re friends for life. They get to say goodbye to adolescence on our sets in the most beautiful way.
How long will you keep expanding the ”It” universe?
Andy Muschietti: It’s Derry, Derry, Derry all day. “Welcome” is an arc that expands over three seasons. Why is “It’” Derry, and why is Derry “It”? We will eventually reveal a bigger story revolving around the existence of Pennywise.
I have to ask — what gives you two nightmares? What is scary to you?
Barbara Muschietti: Fascism. Guns.
Andy Muschietti: Violence in general. We’ve come so far as a civilization, and it seems like we haven’t learned anything. What happened to empathy, and seeing what makes us similar, instead of things that divide us?
WASHINGTON — Back from a week abroad, President Trump is calling on the Senate to scrap the filibuster and reopen the government after a monthlong shutdown, breaking with majority Republicans who have long opposed such a move.
Trump said in a post on his social media site Thursday that “THE CHOICE IS CLEAR — INITIATE THE ‘NUCLEAR OPTION,’ GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER.”
Trump’s sudden decision to assert himself into the shutdown debate — bringing the highly charged demand to end the filibuster — is certain to set the Senate on edge. It could spur senators toward their own compromise or send the chamber spiraling toward a new sense of crisis.
Trump has long called for Republicans to get rid of the Senate rule that requires 60 votes to overcome objections, dating all the way back to his first term in office. The rule gives Democrats a check on the 53-seat Republican majority and enough votes to keep the government closed while they demand an extension of health care subsidies.
Senate Majority Leader John Thune and most members of his Republican conference have strongly opposed changing the filibuster, arguing that it is vital to the institution of the Senate and has allowed them to halt Democratic policies when they are in the minority.
Thune has repeatedly said he is not considering changing the rules to end the shutdown, and his spokesman, Ryan Wrasse, said in a statement Friday that the leader’s “position on the importance of the legislative filibuster is unchanged.”
Broad GOP support for filibuster
Even if Thune wanted to change the filibuster, he would not currently have the votes to do so.
“The filibuster forces us to find common ground in the Senate,” Republican Sen. John Curtis of Utah posted on X Friday morning, responding to Trump’s comments and echoing the sentiments of many of his Senate Republican colleagues. “Power changes hands, but principles shouldn’t. I’m a firm no on eliminating it.”
Debate has swirled around the legislative filibuster for years. Many Democrats pushed to eliminate it when they had full power in Washington, as the Republicans do now, four years ago. But they ultimately didn’t have the votes after enough Democratic senators opposed the move, predicting such an action would come back to haunt them.
Speaker Mike Johnson also defended the filibuster Friday, while conceding “it’s not my call.” He criticized Democrats for pushing to get rid of it when they had power.
“The safeguard in the Senate has always been the filibuster,” Johnson said, adding that Trump’s comments are “the president’s anger at the situation.”
Little progress on shutdown
Trump’s call comes as the two parties have made little progress toward resolving the shutdown standoff while he was away for a week in Asia. He said in his post that he gave a “great deal” of thought to his choice on his flight home and that one question that kept coming up during his trip was why “powerful Republicans allow” the Democrats to shut down parts of the government.
While quiet talks are underway, particularly among bipartisan senators, the shutdown is not expected to end before next week, as both the House and Senate are out of session. Democrats say they won’t vote to reopen the government until Republicans negotiate an extension to the health care subsidies while Republicans say they won’t negotiate until the government is reopened.
As the shutdown drags on, from coast to coast, fallout from the dysfunction of the shuttered federal government is hitting home: Alaskans are stockpiling moose, caribou and fish for winter, even before SNAP food aid is scheduled to shut off. Mainers are filling up their home-heating oil tanks, but waiting on the federal subsidies that are nowhere in sight.
Flights are being delayed with holiday travel around the corner. Workers are going without paychecks. And Americans are getting a first glimpse of the skyrocketing health care insurance costs that are at the center of the stalemate on Capitol Hill. Money for food aid — the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP — will start to run out this weekend.
“People are stressing,” said Sen. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, as food options in her state grow scarce.
“We are well past time to have this behind us.”
Money for military, but not food aid
The White House has moved money around to ensure the military is paid, but refuses to tap funds for food aid. In fact, Trump’s “big, beautiful bill” signed into law this summer, delivered the most substantial cut ever to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, known as SNAP, projected to result in some 2.4 million people off the program.
At the same time, many Americans who purchase their own health insurance through the federal and state marketplaces, with open enrollment also beginning Saturday, are experiencing sticker shock as premium prices jump.
“We are holding food over the heads of poor people so that we can take away their health care,” said Rev. Ryan Stoess during a prayer with religious leaders at the U.S. Capitol.
“God help us,” he said, “when the cruelty is the point.”
Deadlines shift to next week
The House remains closed down under Johnson for the past month and senators departed for the long weekend on Thursday.
That means the shutdown, in its 30th day, appears likely to stretch into another week if the filibuster remains. If the shutdown continues, it could become the longest in history, surpassing the 35-day lapse that ended in 2019, during Trump’s first term, over his demands to build the U.S.-Mexico border wall.
The next inflection point comes after Tuesday’s off-year elections — the New York City mayor’s race, as well as elections in Virginia and New Jersey that will determine those states’ governors. Many expect that once those winners and losers are declared, and the Democrats and Republicans assess their political standing with the voters, they might be ready to hunker down for a deal.
“I hope that it frees people up to move forward with opening the government,” Thune said.
Mascaro writes for the Associated Press. AP writers Mary Clare Jalonick, Matt Brown and Josh Boak in Tokyo contributed to this report.
GYEONGJU, South Korea — President Trump said Wednesday that “it’s too bad” he’s not allowed to run for a third term, conceding the constitutional reality even as he expressed interest in continuing to serve.
“If you read it, it’s pretty clear,” Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One enroute from Japan to South Korea. “I’m not allowed to run. It’s too bad.”
The president’s comments, which continue his on-again, off-again musings about a third term, came a day after House Speaker Mike Johnson said it would be impossible for Trump to stay in the White House.
“I don’t see the path for that,” he told reporters at the U.S. Capitol on Tuesday.
Johnson, the Republican leader who has built his career by drawing closer to Trump, said he discussed the issue with the president, and he thinks Trump understands the situation.
“He and I have talked about the constrictions of the Constitution,” he said.
The speaker described how the Constitution’s 22nd Amendment does not allow for a third presidential term and changing that, with a new amendment, would be a cumbersome, decade-long process winning over states and votes in Congress.
“But I can tell you that we are not going to take our foot off the gas pedal,” he said. “We’re going to deliver for the American people, and we’ve got a great run ahead of us — he’ll have four strong years.”
Trump stopped short of characterizing his conversation with Johnson, and his description of the prohibition on third terms was somewhat less definitive.
“Based on what I read, I guess I’m not allowed to run,” he said Wednesday. “So we’ll see what happens.”
Trump has repeatedly raised the idea of trying to stay in power. Hats saying “Trump 2028” are passed out as souvenir keepsakes to lawmakers and others visiting the White House, and Trump’s former 2016 campaign chief-turned-podcaster Stephen Bannon has revived the idea of a third Trump term.
Trump told reporters Monday on Air Force One on his trip to Japan that “I would love to do it.”
He went on to say that his Republican Party has great options for the next presidential election — in Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who was traveling with him, and Vice President JD Vance, who visited with senators at the Capitol on Tuesday.
“All I can tell you is that we have a great group of people,” Trump said.
Pressed if he was ruling out a third-term bid, Trump demurred. Asked about a strategy where he could run as vice president, which could be allowed under the laws, and then work himself in the presidency, he dismissed the idea as “too cute.”
“You’d be allowed to do that, but I wouldn’t do that,” he said.
The chit chat comes as Trump, in his words and actions, is showing just how far he can push the presidency — and daring anyone to stop him.
He is sending National Guard troops to cities over the objections of several state governors; accepting untold millions in private donations to pay the military and fund the new White House ballroom, picking winners and losers in the government shutdown.
Johnson, the Louisiana Republican who rose swiftly to become House speaker with Trump’s blessing, dismissed worries about a potential third term by the president’s critics whose “hair is on fire.”
“He has a good time with that, trolling the Democrats,” Johnson said.
Megerian and Mascaro write for the Associated Press.
In a sign of California’s rising status as a major hub of Democratic politics, Gov. Gavin Newsom said Sunday he’s considering a run for president in 2028 — just a day after former U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris made the same pronouncement.
Newsom, a Democrat who has won national prominence this year pitching himself a leader of the resistance to President Trump, admitted for the first time publicly that he is seriously weighing a 2028 presidential run.
In an interview with “CBS News Sunday Morning,” Newsom was asked whether he would give “serious thought” after the 2026 midterms to a White House bid.
“Yeah, I’d be lying otherwise,” Newsom replied. “I’d just be lying. And I’m not — I can’t do that.”
Harris said this weekend in an interview with the BBC that she expects a woman will be president in the coming year. “Possibly,” she said, it could be her.
“I am not done,” she said. “I have lived my entire career as a life of service and it’s in my bones.”
It’s still more than three years until the November 2028 election, and entirely possible only one or neither of the two California politicians could throw their hat in the race.
But the early willingness of Newsom and Harris to publicly consider a White House bid shows that the Golden State is still a major hub of Democratic politics. It also sets up a potential 2028 political showdown between two of California’s weightiest political figureheads.
For years, Newsom has denied presidential ambitions. But since Trump defeated Harris in the November 2024 election, the California governor has emerged as a vocal critic of the Trump administration’s agenda.
Under Newsom’s leadership, California has filed dozens of lawsuits against Trump — most noticeably against the Trump administration’ deployment of National Guard and Marines to Los Angeles. The governor has also become more aggressive on social media, taking to X to taunt and troll Trump.
Still, Newsom, whose term ends in January 2027 and who cannot run again for governor because of term limits, cautioned that he is not rushing into a 2028 presidential campaign.
“I have no idea,” Newsom said Sunday of whether he will actually decide to run.
After Trump defeated Harris in November, Harris was viewed as a possible candidate for California governor. But in July she announced that, after “serious thought” she would not run for the top California office.
“For now, my leadership — and public service — will not be in elected office,” Harris said in a statement. “I look forward to getting back out and listening to the American people, helping elect Democrats across the nation who will fight fearlessly, and sharing more details in the months ahead about my own plans.”
Newsom’s interest in the White House raises the stakes for passing Proposition 50, a California ballot measure he has pushed — in response to a similar initiative in Texas — that would allow state Democrats to temporarily change the boundaries of U.S. House maps so that they are more favorable to Democrats. California voters will vote on Prop 50 in a special election next week.
Newsom has cast his effort as a response to Trump’s push to redraw maps in Republican-controlled states to make them more favorable to the GOP.
“I think it’s about our democracy,” Newsom said in the CBS interview. “It’s about the future of this republic. I think it’s about, you know, what the founding fathers lived and died for, this notion of the rule of law, and not the rule of Don.”
If Newsom is successful and Proposition 50 passes, the move could potentially help future Democratic candidates for the White House.
But either way, both Newsom and Harris would face high hurdles in battleground states if they ran for president.
Just being a Californian is a liability, some argue, at a time when Republicans depict the state as a bastion of woke ideas, high taxes and crime.
While California boasts the world’s fifth-largest economy and is home to the massive tech powerhouse of Silicon Valley and the cultural epicenter of Hollywood, it has struggled in recent years with high housing costs and massive income inequality. In September, a study found California tied with Louisiana for the nation’s highest poverty rate.
Newsom, 58, a former San Francisco mayor who was born to a wealthy and well-connected San Francisco family, suggested in the CBS interview that he had already surmounted significant obstacles. Early on, Newsom struggled in school and suffered from dyslexia.
“The idea that a guy who got 960 on his SAT, that still struggles to read scripts, that was always in the back of the classroom, the idea that you would even throw that out is, in and of itself, extraordinary,” Newsom said. “Who the hell knows? I’m looking forward to who presents themselves in 2028 and who meets that moment. And that’s the question for the American people.”
Harris, 61, who served as a U.S. senator and California attorney general before she became vice president in 2020 and then the Democratic Party’s nominee in the 2024 presidential election, received criticism last year after losing to Trump by more than 2.3 million votes, about 1.5% of the popular vote. Some Democrats accused her of being an elite, out of touch candidate who failed to connect with voters in battleground states who have struggled economically in recent years.
“I wrote the book for many reasons, but primarily to remind us how unprecedented that election was,” Harris said.
“Think about it. A sitting president of the United States is running for reelection and three and a half months before the election decides not to run, and then a sitting vice president takes up the mantle to run against a former president of the United States who has been running for 10 years, with 107 days to go.”
Newsom has already raised eyebrows this year by traveling to critical battleground election states.
After Newsom spoke in South Carolina, Rep. James Clyburn, the highest-ranking Black member of Congress and renowned Democratic kingmaker who rescued former President Biden’s 2020 campaign, told The Times that Newsom would be “a hell of a candidate.”
“He’s demonstrated that over and over again,” Clyburn said, stopping short of endorsing him. “I feel good about his chances.”
But other leading South Carolina Democrats voiced doubts that Newsom could win over working class and swing voters in battleground states.
Richard Harpootlian, a South Carolina attorney, former state senator and former chairman of the state Democratic Party, called Newsom “a handsome man with great hair.”
“But the party is searching for a left-of-moderate candidate who can articulate blue-collar hopes and desires,” Harpootlian told The Times.
“If he had a track record of solving huge problems like homelessness, or the social safety net, he’d be a more palatable candidate,” he added. “I just think he’s going to have a tough time explaining why there’s so many failures in California.”
Brad Ingelsby knew after the breakout success of HBO’s “Mare of Easttown” — a crime drama about a police detective (Kate Winslet) investigating the murder of a teenage girl in a fictional working-class town — he didn’t want his next series to be another whodunit.
“That’s Mare’s thing,” he says on a recent late afternoon. “So, you start to go, if you’re going to write another story in the crime genre, what would get the audience to keep clicking to the next episode? I just thought, ‘Well, maybe a collision course show, where [in] every episode, we get a little closer, a little closer, a little closer, until things collide.’ ”
In “Task,” which concluded Sunday on HBO, Mark Ruffalo stars as Tom Brandis, a priest-turned-FBI agent leading a task force investigating a series of robberies in Delaware County, Pa., an area commonly referred to as Delco that was also the setting for “Mare of Easttown.” (And with references to Wawa and Scrapple, along with visits to Rita’s Water Ice, it slips into its role of expanding the universe.) It leads Tom to Robbie Prendergast (Tom Pelphrey), a sanitation worker who robs drug houses at night to provide for his family. Both men are emotionally tortured by life events — Tom’s wife was murdered by their adopted son, who is incarcerated; Robbie’s brother was killed by a member of a motorcycle gang — that have set them each on different, but destructive paths.
In “Task,” Mark Ruffalo, left, Alison Oliver, Thuso Mbedu and Fabein Frankel portray law enforcement officers who are part of an FBI task force investigating a string of robberies.
(Peter Kramer / HBO)
“ ‘Mare’ was about the moms — the damage that all the guys have caused and the women are kind of having to pick up the pieces of that,” Ingelsby says. “This [show] is all about the fathers and being left behind, seeing the damage they’ve done to their kids, how they’re going to fix that in their lives — or not be able to fix it. The guys who are actually doing the damage without knowing.”
Ingelsby says his uncle, who was an Augustinian priest, helped inspire the throughline of the series.
“I’ve always been very intrigued by his idea of faith in God over the years, and how it’s changed over time, and what he believed once and what he believes now,” he says. “I was intrigued by the idea of a guy who, everything he held as truth, all the pillars of his life, have come crumbling down. And Robbie has a much different faith. And it’s through the gauntlet of the story, how their lives intersect, that they both get to navigate their own journeys of faith.”
Over dinner at a West Hollywood hotel, The Times sat down with Ingelsby, Ruffalo and Pelphrey to discuss their faith journeys, economic inequality, fatherhood — and Wawa, too. Here are edited excerpts from the conversation, which contains spoilers about the finale.
After the success of “Mare of Easttown,” creator Brad Ingelsby wanted his follow-up, “Task,” to feel connected, but not repetitive: “ ‘Mare’ was about the moms,” he says. “This [show] is all about the fathers and being left behind, seeing the damage they’ve done to their kids, how they’re going to fix that in their lives — or not be able to fix it.”
(Bexx Francois/For The Times)
The themes of the show involve forgiveness and faith. Every person has experienced something in life that has tested those ideas. How has your own relationship to faith and forgiveness evolved as you’ve lived more life or taken on roles that ask you to live different experiences?
Pelphrey: My faith, to me, is when I got sober. God willing, Oct. 1, which is three days from now, it’ll be 12 years. That’s truly by the grace of God — you hear that phrase, but I genuinely, I mean that. That’s how I’ve experienced faith, through my sobriety. I was raised Catholic, but the experience I had at 31 was like in a different dimension to what I thought of religion or ideas. It’s one thing to have an idea, it’s another thing to have your heart opened. It’s definitely an important part of my life. And I think Brad did such a beautiful job conveying that. My grandma used to have one of these things when I was a kid — not a real gem, but like a glass cut thing so if you put it in the window, the sun shines through a million different ways, and the color goes everywhere. I feel like you [Brad] did that with some themes in the show where you’re like, “Let me just hold it up, and we’ll just look at it a few different ways.”
Ruffalo: My journey with faith is probably very similar to Tom’s. When you get a job or something, it can take you on a journey that you’re ripe to take. It touches your life at a very moment where you need it. I’d say, after my brother died, the whole notion of faith just went out the window for me. But oddly enough, I have a lot of addiction, alcoholism in my family. I say, either you are one or you love one. When you love somebody who’s struggling with that, it takes a lot of faith to let them go and to trust it will be OK. My friend says to me, “They got a God and you ain’t it.”
My faith has been renewed, actually, through Tom [the character] — he is an alcoholic. It’s touched my life in so many ways, even with my brother, that it’s like where I lost my faith and where I gained my faith again has been through this journey with alcoholism and drug addiction. And I waver. You look at the world and you’re like, “Where is God in this? Please show yourself. ” But the thing about faith is it requires you to believe without any evidence of its existence. I’d rather believe in that than nothing. Although, I fought him [Brad] all the time. I was like, “He’s [Tom] not really praying here. He’s trying to pray. He’s going through the actions of praying, but he can’t quite get to the opening sentence, which is “ … God …” He does pray, eventually, but it’s a journey.
There’s the powerful moment in that car when Tom and Robbie finally meet in Episode 5. Robbie says, “I don’t think I’ve ever experienced God in my life.” This is a man that hasn’t felt hope, and he has this glimmer of it with this goal of escaping to Canada. Tom, how was it getting into the mindset of this guy just trying to get out of this life?
Pelphrey: It’s heartbreaking. We’re articulating an American dream that far too many people don’t get to experience, and maybe are starting to lose the hope of ever experiencing it. That’s a very real thing — unfortunately, way too real and increasingly way too common. It was just constantly reminding myself: What does this character want? And at the end of the day, regardless of how extreme some of the things Robbie’s doing, he just wants a decent life for his kids. And the fact that he’s having a hard time getting it is heartbreaking.
That scene and in the car, the first time I read it, I was like, “Oh, he’s [Brad] got some balls.” You have so much s— boiling over — the plot lines, the violence, the stakes are through the roof for everyone now in the show, and we are going to sit in a car for half an episode? And two dudes are gonna talk?
In Episode 5, Robbie Prendergast (Tom Pelphrey), left, and Tom Brandis (Mark Ruffalo) finally meet.
(HBO)
Ruffalo: There’s no chase! And when they finally face each other, they’re not even [actually] facing each other! They’re both pushed to the edge and you don’t know where it could go. Tom certainly doesn’t know where it will go. Tom’s kind of at that point, like, “F— it. Go ahead.” We talked about it a lot, I was like, “I think Tom should die.”
[They break into laughter]
Ingelsby: Every single day he was pitching it.
Ruffalo: I was pitching Tom should have a heart attack at the end and he literally sees God and he says to God, “I’m ready.” He finally finds his faith. It’s finally paid off and he says [gasping], “I’m … reaaady.”
Ingelsby: Enough people die here. But that particular episode has always been very special to me. That’s when the show is operating at the peak of its powers. It just felt like, how do we subvert the expectations of the audience and do that in a way that still feels true to who these characters are? I remember talking to you [Tom] about this. You were like, “As soon as I know Cliff’s done, I’m on a one-way street. I have a plan.” But with you [Mark], once they get out of the car and you feel like you’re going to die, you’re like, “I want to call my family.” That’s when you get activated in a way. You’ve been going through the motions in life, but that’s when it gets very real.
Ruffalo: It’s like being reborn. It opens his heart. He sees how life can be taken away.
We’re in a political and cultural moment where the mood of the country is simmering — there’s anger and rage on all sides, and a lot of it stems from class and systemic issues that are in place that put people in certain positions. There’s that layer, but there’s also the grief element both these men are facing.
Ingelsby: With Robbie in particular, I was interested in a guy that felt really stuck. What I liked about Robbie was, if he didn’t take action, what would happen to Robbie? He’d be a trash man in too deep his whole life. Who cares about Robbie and his family? Nobody. He was left behind. In early versions of the script, I very explicitly said, “He wants his bite of the apple.” There are lots of people like that now. I loved writing Robbie because it felt like he was raging against being left behind and and I felt, in many cases, in the script, why wouldn’t you do something? Whether you agree with the actions or not —
Pelphrey: He had his f— life stolen from him. What he’s going after is a very specific thing. He’s not lashing out blindly against anybody to get any money at any cost. He’s like: “I’m gonna take it from these mother f—, who are bad dudes.” Even within that, he has principles. No one’s gonna die — obviously, the rules all go out the window Episode 2, but we’re not going to take the drugs, we’re not going to sell the drug. We’re going to destroy the drugs. We’re going to take the cash. Even within his brand of lashing out, he actually has a set of principles that he’s operating by.
Mark Ruffalo, left, and Tom Pelphrey star as two troubled men on a collision course in “Task.” Ruffalo portrays an FBI agent recovering from a family tragedy, while Pelphrey plays a garbage collector and criminal involved in a series of robberies. (Bexx Francois/For The Times)
Mark and Tom, as sons and fathers, how did you think about the father-child relationships of these two men and the collateral damage of their choices?
Ruffalo: It’s so hard to be a father, especially now because this generation is like, “We’re not going to do it the way our parents, our fathers did. We see that there’s another way to do it. We’re actually talking about it.” At the same time, we don’t exactly know what it is that we should do differently, plus we have the responsibility of, financially, keeping it together. It’s obviously hard to be a mom too. These guys are doing the best they can.
Pelphrey: Becoming a dad two and a half years ago now, it’s just the most f— awesome, wild, intense, crazy s— I’ve ever experienced in my life. It’s like getting struck by lightning. I’m so in love and I feel so vulnerable and I feel so happy — it’s all the feelings. Then suddenly, when you’re thinking about how you feel, you go, “How do I balance this? How do I protect her, but make sure that she’s brave and experiencing things? And you quickly realize there is so much to this that I will have no power over and the realization of that, in the deepest sense — and I’ve already had moments of that and we’re just getting started here. You imagine what it’s like, when you don’t have kids, but you have no f— clue. One of the things I could say without blinking, ever, is, “I totally understand why he’s doing what he’s doing.”
Was there a version where Robbie lived?
Ingelsby: No, I felt like structurally what needed to happen was Tom had to witness Robbie’s kindness, then his sacrifice. It felt very necessary to be like, “Oh, wait. Robbie — he went up to the woods…” Because he’s always like, “What’s the plan?” Tom realizes, “Oh, I know what the plan was. He went there to die.” Part of Tom’s journey to getting rid of the anger and to believing in something at the end, was to have witnessed the goodness in Robbie. He [Robbie] also gets in so deep eventually, he has pushed himself into such a corner and there’s no good way out of this. What’s an audience gonna think if he gets out of this unscathed? Even if he were to survive, he’s gonna be in jail for the rest of his life. The idea of sacrifice would speak to Tom as a character and get him to his ultimate decision to give the boy [Sam] up, but also forgive his own son and, quite literally, get the house ready for him.
Mark, how did you feel about the statement that Tom winds up giving at the hearing in the finale?
Ruffalo: He had to sit down and write that. I don’t think he really knew what he was going to be writing. He’s taking stock of his life and his son’s life and the story of the life. It’s connecting him to the whole story. It’s not just the loss of my wife, but also we raised that boy. We made this life together and, even in the hard part of it all, that’s where we learned what love is. Then when he gets in there, he doesn’t even know that he’s gonna say it. He doesn’t know he’s going to confront him with it and say [to his son], “Look at me.” But the whole journey, leads us there.
There’s something, too, about his composure in that moment.
Ingelsby: That’s the genius of Mark. That was the first or second take, what we used.
How many versions of it did you write? Was there an overly emotional or dramatic version?
Ingelsby: There was a longer version. But I think what was important about it was — and Mark does such a beautiful job — was that he had to be honest about how hard it was. I was always worried it would be a bit maudlin, if he just went in and said straight away, “I love you.” It was almost like he had to be really honest with everybody, like, “Hey, this was f— horrible.” And the shame of changing your name —
Ruffalo: Yes. To be that honest and to say that I pretended like I wasn’t his father. It’s so shameful. It’s so honest.
Ingelsby: I think because he’s so honest, it makes the forgiveness even more impactful. When he says, “I forgive you,” you believe because he’s earned the trust in the speech by admitting the things that were so shameful .
Ruffalo: It doesn’t just go one way — forgiveness. There’s a lot of shame on it on the other side, that’s where the anger comes from. There’s always this question: What could I have done? The backstory was I left, knowing that he was in an episode, but I had to go. I left her with him, thinking it would blow over. And it didn’t. He has to also be honest about his part in it. What dad says, “That’s not my kid. You’re in retreat already.”
Ingelsby: That’s what we want the ending to be. It’s not that everything’s going to be easy. I think the same for Mare — it wasn’t like Mare’s life was so great at the end of the show. There was a lot of going on.
Ruffalo: She’s going to an AA meeting. Tom and Mare can meet at an AA meeting.
Tom Pelphrey as Robbie Prendergrast, a garbage collector trying to avenge his brother’s death by hitting trap houses belonging to a local gang before getting caught in a deadly standoff. (HBO)
Mark Ruffalo, Silvia Dionicio and Phoebe Fox in “Task.” Ruffalo plays a priest-turned-FBI agent who hasn’t confronted his feelings about the murder of his wife at the hands of their adopted son. (HBO)
To that point, was there thought about whether to incorporate “Mare” characters in this show, if they’re in the same universe?
Ingelsby: It’s funny you say that. [In] one of the early scripts, we had a scene where Emily (Silvia Dionicio), at the end of the show, went to a concert with her boyfriend, Leo, the guy that’s a magician. And Mare’s daughter, Siobhan (Angourie Rice), was playing. And there was another connective piece I’m missing. I think Leo’s brother was in the band. And they had a moment together, because I felt like Emily and Siobhan were very, very similar. That they had the weight of the world on their shoulders in some way, Emily especially —
Ruffalo: They’re well suited for each other. They could just sink to the bottom of the lake together.
He’s got a crossover season mapped out for you.
Pelphrey: If we hold hands, we can sink faster.
Ingelsby: But we did have something connecting them. But I’m glad HBO read it and were like, “Is it a bit much?” It felt like maybe we were reaching to do something that the story didn’t require. And when we took it out, I felt like this story exists on its own, and we didn’t need that. If we had threaded it through the story in a more interesting way, maybe it would have worked, but it would have felt really tacked on and kind of just fan service for the sake of fan service, which I didn’t want.
Can we talk about the Phillies cup? It’s seems like such an obscure detail, but that cup triggered me. I know it well. A father trying to hide his vice.
Ingelsby: That’s another detail of my own life that I can repurpose, steal. That’s my dad. He drinks out of that. He watches every Phillies game. There’s 162 games. And if he can’t watch, he’s listening to it in a radio in the car. I feel like we always talk about in the specific, is the universal. And Mark did the swirly thing.
Ruffalo: That’s what made me want to do the show. That he was drinking out of that. And then he swirled his hand. I said, “This guy is writing character like nobody is doing that I’ve seen in television.” I only read the first episode and I was like, “I want to go. I trust this journey with him.” And it was from that nuance thing. I know that guy. He’s a priest who swirls his vodka and tonic with his finger. In a Phillies cup. And he thinks he’s pulling it over. That’s my family. It’s so honest.
The accent was such a feature of “Mare of Easttown.” I imagine that had its own expectations or pressure for this show.
Ingelsby: “Mare” was more a community — very, very specific community. I felt like, in that show, we had to go all in and Kate did. A lot of Mark’s character was driven by my uncle, who has no accent at all. Because he went to the seminary, then he went to Merrimack College, he was a teacher — he bounced around. And even me, there’s a couple words I’ll say that you can’t pick up a heavy accent. There’s a couple words, where maybe you could pick it up.
Ruffalo: We tried. I tried it. I kept kicking it out, it just didn’t feel right. He does hit some of those words. He does say wooder — cheery wooder ice. We kept some of it in, but we didn’t go as hard at it because he goes another way. I feel like he might have ended up in South America at some point. I was thinking he traveled the world.
Did you pay many visits to Wawa? I remember Kate telling me about her Wawa experiences.
Pelphrey: I grew up going to Wawa. I was Wawa all the time because I was living out in the suburbs.
Ingelsby: I think Kate ate hoagies or something.
Pelphrey: They make a good sandwich.
Ruffalo: Oh, bro. I started with a fat suit and then I had to take it off. I just kept getting fatter. My wife saw me and she’s like [to the kids], “huh, your father’s eating his way through Philly.” But, man, I’d be like, “How about a sandwich for the scene?” [Mimics scarfing down a sandwich.] Like a troll.
Ingelsby: He is an amazing sandwich eater. We were talking about it.
Pelphrey: We were.
Ruffalo: Oh, I knew I was going to be eating a sandwich that day [in a scene], so I starved myself so I could just plow that thing.
Are you interested in a Season 2, Brad?
Ruffalo: No one wants a Season 2. [the trio laughs] No, I’m kidding. That would be amazing.
Ingelsby: It would be amazing. If people respond and we get a chance to do it.
Could we get that “Task”-”Mare” crossover?
Ingelsby: A lot could happen.
Ruffalo: Some “Mare” people could show up. There could be a love affair.
I am standing on what looks like a cramped, dark city street. A tavern is around a corner, a police department in front of me. And I’m lost.
That’s when I hear a whisper. “Psst.” I turn, and see a puppet peeping his head out of a secret opening of a door. Over here,” he says, and I find myself leaning in to listen to this furry, oval-faced creature in the shadows. He’ll help me, he says — that is if I can clear his name. See, another puppet has been murdered, and everyone right now is a suspect.
Campaign posters for puppet candidates for mayor inside Appleseed Avenue. “Election Day” is a tale of political espionage with puppet-on-puppet violence.
(Juliana Yamada / Los Angeles Times)
I am playing a gamed called “Election Day” at Appleseed Avenue, a relatively new escape room in a multi-story strip mall in Newhall. The puppet world is in the midst of a crisis, torn over whether humans should be allowed to wander the fictional street of Appleseed Avenue. My role is that of a detective, and throughout this game of fatal political espionage, I encounter multiple puppet characters — electricians, would-be-mayors, gangsters, dead puppets.
Drama ensues, and that’s where we humans come in, helping the puppets crack the case before we’re banned from their world once and for all. One needn’t be up on the state of puppet politics to participate — and don’t worry, the domestic affairs of Appleseed Avenue are relatively divorced from those of our own. Only a penchant for silly absurdity, and a stomach for puppet-on-puppet violence, is required.
While the look of the puppets may be inspired by, say, “Sesame Street,” with characters that are all big mouths and large eyes, the tone of “Election Day” leans a bit more adult. Recommended for ages 13 and older, “Election Day” will feature puppets in perilous conditions. And if you’re playing as a medical examiner, be prepared to get a glimpse at a mini puppet morgue.
Guests will play as detectives or medical examiners in Appleseed Avenue’s “Election Day.”
(Juliana Yamada / Los Angeles Times)
“Sometimes people do think, ‘Oh, this is for little kids.’ Not quite,” says Patrick Fye, who created the experience with Matt Tye. “We call it PG-13.”
“We wanted that dichotomy,” says Tye. “Really silly puppet-y characters in a gritty world.”
Fye and Tye are veterans of the local escape room scene — Fye the creator of Evil Genius Escape Rooms and Tye the developer of Arcane Escape Rooms. “Election Day,” however, while a timed experience, isn’t a pure escape room. Think of it more as a story that unfolds and needs solving. We’re not trapped. In fact, one puzzle actually utilizes the waiting room, as “Election Day” toys with the idea of traversing the human world and a puppet universe.
Patrick Fye and Matthew Tye, founders of Appleseed Avenue, along with their lookalike puppets.
(Juliana Yamada / Los Angeles Times)
Puppets weren’t necessarily the driving idea behind their joint venture in Appleseed Avenue. Creating a so-called escape room that was more narrative based was the objective. They wanted a room, for instance, where puzzles felt natural rather than forced. “Election Day” isn’t a space, say, with complex cipher codes to untangle. I was reminded of old-fashioned adventure video games, where one is prompted to look at objects, combine them or go on scavenger hunts, like the one prompted by the puppet I met in an alley.
Puppets were simply a means to an end.
“How can we make something that feels like you’re actually in the story and has more video game-y elements, as opposed to, ‘I’m in an Egyptian tomb. Here’s a padlock,’ ” says Fye. “We were trying to figure out how to mix the diegetics with the overall design. We stumbled on crimes and puppets because we thought it was fun and funny.”
One problem: Neither had created puppets or puppeteered before. Enter online classes, where Tye learned how to craft arm-rod puppets.
“We thought it was the coolest idea we had,” Tye says. When we both look at something and go, ‘We don’t know how to do all of this yet,’ we don’t let that stop us.”
Appleseed Avenue is home to an escape room featuring puppets. It doubles as the street name in which the game, “Election Day,” takes place.
(Juliana Yamada / Los Angeles Times)
“Election Day” does unfold like a live-in video game. At times, we’re interacting with a screen, as puppets will relay us messages and quests. Often, we’ll explore the space, as the two have created an elaborate set. Teams are split. Half work as detectives, and half as medical examiners. We can communicate via an inter-room conference system, or simply run back and forth.
But listening to everything the puppets say is paramount, as clues are often hidden in dialogue. Both say they have done too many escape rooms where the story felt too divorced from the actions they were being asked to complete.
“We even say at the beginning of the game, ‘The story really matters.’ You have to pay attention to it,” Fye says. “There’s a moment I’ll never forget. We were doing a Titanic room, and we were in the engine room shoveling coal. But isn’t the ship sinking? What is happening? A lot of times a story is just set dressing.”
Appleseed Avenue’s ‘Election Day’
The initial response to “Election Day” has been positive, so much so that the two are set to debut a second game in 2026, a sci-fi room titled “Shadow Puppet.” The latter will utilize the same Appleseed Avenue set, although additional spaces will be built out. They’re also looking at some more kid-friendly options. Planned for 2027 is a game titled “Puppet Town Day,” in which little ones will receive passports that prompt them to interact with the puppet characters.
Wanted posters for puppets. Many are a suspect in Appleseed Avenue’s “Election Day.”
(Juliana Yamada / Los Angeles Times)
For now, however, think of Appleseed Avenue as part of greater Los Angeles escape room trend. Whether it’s Hatch Escapes with its corporate time-jumping game “The Ladder” or Ministry of Peculiarities with its spooky haunted house, creators here are emphasizing story. Appleseed Avenue is no different, introducing us to a wacky cast of puppet characters.
It also achieves a rare feat: It makes murder feel ridiculous.
Says Tye: “When there’s a guy named Alby Dunfer who’s getting it from a blowdart from a hitman, it’s like, ‘OK, this is fun.’ ”
For L.A.-based musician, composer and artist San Cha, the Spanish language is a creative gold mine. “One of my favorite Spanish words is ‘embriágame,’ which I think the direct translation is ‘make me drunk’ or ‘intoxicate me,’” she says. “I love that word. I think there’s a song by Thalía that has that word, it’s called ‘Piel Morena,’ and every time she said that, I’m like — ‘That’s it!’”
San Cha is speaking of her latest work, “Inebria me,” ahead of its Los Angeles premiere Thursday at REDCAT, inside the Walt Disney Concert Hall complex. “Inebria me” is a 90-minute experimental opera that expands on her critically acclaimed 2019 ranchera fusion album, “La Luz de la Esperanza.” San Cha stars as Dolores, a humble bride to the much wealthier Salvador, whose jealousy turns deadly; enter Esperanza, a genderless spirit of empowerment, who helps light Dolores’ path to freedom.
Having gone from singing rancheras in the restaurants of Mexico City to experimenting in underground drag scenes in the Bay Area, San Cha has developed a knack for synthesizing disparate influences that result in visually arresting and thought-provoking work. Born Lizette Gutierrez in San Jose to Mexican immigrant parents, San Cha grew up offsetting her intense Bible study by binging on telenovelas after school. It shows in “Inebria me,” where she employs the classic narrative structure of the telenovela, but with a queer twist. “I wanted to hold [onto] the queerness of [the story] and the religious aspects of it,” she says.
The opera is the latest of San Cha’s collaborative efforts. She’s previously linked up with an array of artists — including La Doña, Rafa Esparza, Yesika Salgado and even country singer Kacey Musgraves, who featured San Cha in a pivotal moment from her 2021 visual album, “Star-Crossed.” Darian Donovan Thomas also stars in “Inebria me,” alongside Stefa Marin Alarcon, Lu Coy, Kyle Kidd, Carolina Oliveros and Phong Tran.
In our latest interview, she discusses developing her music for the stage and what it took to build the confidence to advocate for her original vision on her own.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
San Cha performs with Darian Donovan Thomas on Sept. 5 at the Winningstad Theatre in Portland, Ore.
(Jingzi Zhao)
When did the idea to adapt “La Luz de la Esperanza” come to you? It actually came to me in 2023 or 2024 when I partnered with the National Performance Network for this grant. I started talking with the Portland Institute for Contemporary Art, which was already on board, and the Performance Space New York. Like, what would I do to adapt this work?
Did you have experience in traditional theater growing up? No, I didn’t. And I also didn’t watch too many movies. I missed out on a lot of those very American experiences. People would be like, “Do you know this movie?’ And “It’s like a classic,” and it’s like “No.” I was really sheltered, you know, “I’m over here in Bible study” kind of s—.
Has anyone in your family seen this piece? If so, what was their feedback? My parents saw a trial version of this piece in San Jose, my hometown. They saw the PG-13 version, which is what I’d like to say, and my mom was confused; I don’t even know how my dad felt. My mom’s one comment was, “You didn’t sing rancheras. Everyone wants you to sing rancheras.” And I was like, “Oh, my God.” So they also came to the closing night with a big group, and I sang the rancheras for them at the end.
How would you relate “Inebria me” to what’s considered a “traditional” opera? I would say it has a very clear narrative … everything is sung, except for the parts [where] the Man [is] talking or speaking.
I sing rancheras [and] that kind of blends into operas. I didn’t grow up being an opera singer, or wanting to be an opera singer, but somehow it developed in that direction. In this, we get to be all the things: a little hardcore, a little pop, a little mix with opera.
Where did the idea to bring in telenovelas come from? I wanted to make a telenovela set to music. And because I’d never seen a queer telenovela … I just was like, I want to make the telenovela and set it to disco music … something electronic, glamorous. It [speaks to] the illusion of glamour, underneath everything is ugly and twisted.
What was your first memory of watching a telenovela? There are so many. I’d watch the kid telenovelas. But there’s one in particular … it’s one where Lucero, a big pop star in Mexico, plays three versions of herself, so she’s a triplet. And there’s one [version] that is so evil. I still remember, [the characters] would get very BDSM … like locking people up! As a kid, I was feeling like … “Why am I watching this? I’m a child!”
“I didn’t grow up wanting to be an opera singer, but somehow it developed in that direction,” says San Cha of “Inebria me.”
(Jingzi Zhao)
You’ve talked about how drag queens were instrumental, especially early in your career. Queer and drag culture have come into mainstream pop and youth culture on the one hand, but remain demonized on the other. How do you reconcile those two extremes in your work? I guess visibility doesn’t always mean safety or acceptance. I remember being in San Francisco and seeing drag that wasn’t as polished and more on the fringe side of it.
I was … kind of hating it when I got to L.A. and how polished everyone was. But when I saw “RuPaul’s Drag Race” reruns on VH1, I was like, “This is literally life-changing.” And how cool that this is becoming mainstream!
In a previous interview, you discussed sin and guilt as the themes of this work. Many artists have explored this theme in various ways across different cultures and times. Why do you think ideas around guilt and sin hold such power over us? You’re made to do what you don’t want to do by [people] making you feel shame for the ways you act. And in [“Inebria me”], the sisters each have a confession, and I wanted to make that a focal point — with the nun, the religious person.
In telenovelas, there’s always a priest [they] talk to when they have troubles, you know? And I think in the [Catholic practice of] confession, it is important to relieve yourself of the shame and guilt. But it’s almost like you relieve yourself and then you feel shame, you know? And that’s the part that stops growth, evolution and freedom.
For someone whose first impression of “Inebria me” is that it’s not for them, what do you think they would be surprised to discover or an element they would enjoy? Everyone in this piece is a star, everyone’s a diva. I think they all really shine on their own, and they really bring it with the acting. Their voices are all incredible, and their stage presence. Maybe they could be into the scene design by Anthony Robles — it’s super minimal, but it does so much for the space in creating this oppressive world. I think there is something for everyone. It’s a story that can relate to a lot of people.
Paramount on Friday sharply denounced a proposed boycott of Israeli film institutions by a group that calls itself Film Workers for Palestine and is supported by dozens of Hollywood luminaries.
Earlier this week, the group launched an open letter pledging to withhold support for Israeli film festivals, production companies and other organizations that the group said were involved in “genocide and apartheid against the Palestinian people.”
The letter has been signed by hundreds of individuals, including filmmakers Jonathan Glazer, Ava DuVernay, Yorgos Lanthimos, Emma Stone, Joaquin Phoenix, Rooney Mara, Olivia Colman and Mark Ruffalo.
“As filmmakers, actors, film industry workers, and institutions, we recognize the power of cinema to shape perceptions,” the group wrote. “In this urgent moment of crisis, where many of our governments are enabling the carnage in Gaza, we must do everything we can to address complicity in that unrelenting horror.”
The group pledged “not to screen films, appear at or otherwise work with Israeli film institutions — including festivals, cinemas, broadcasters and production companies,” which have been “implicated” in attacks on Palestinians. The group described its effort as being inspired by filmmakers joining the South African boycott over apartheid, a global campaign decades ago that proved influential in helping overturn the nation’s government.
Paramount, which was acquired last month by the Larry Ellison family and private equity firm RedBird Capital Partners, made clear its opposition to the filmmakers’ campaign.
“We believe in the power of storytelling to connect and inspire people, promote mutual understanding, and preserve the moments, ideas, and events that shape the world we share,” said an emailed statement attributed to the company. “We do not agree with recent efforts to boycott Israeli filmmakers. Silencing individual creative artists based on their nationality does not promote better understanding or advance the cause of peace.”
Paramount is the first studio to state a position on the divisive issue. An insider who was not authorized to speak about the internal debate said Paramount Chief Executive David Ellison and the company’s leadership team felt strongly about the need to speak out in opposition, believing that individuals should not be boycotted based on their nationality.
“The global entertainment industry should be encouraging artists to tell their stories and share their ideas with audiences throughout the world,” Paramount said. “We need more engagement and communication — not less.”
This article contains spoilers for the Season 2 finale of “Wednesday.”
In a world where teenagers grapple with accusations of withering attention spans and a lack of motivation, Wednesday Addams managed to rouse from a coma and made the back-to-school scaries feel even more like a mind trip by … summoning Lady Gaga?
“Wednesday” returned for the second half of its sophomore season on Netflix this week, picking up right after Part 1’s ominous cliffhanger to reveal its moody teenage protagonist evaded potential death and that she was ready to dive back into the twisty world of deadly family secrets, monsterly situationships and friendship woes.
In the middle of the new threats and old mysteries are the show-stopping contributions from the pop superstar (and honorary mother to all outcasts, including her legion of Little Monsters, as her fanbase is called). Lady Gaga, whose real name is Stefani Germanotta, made a roughly two-minute appearance as Rosaline Rotwood, a deceased professor at Nevermore, the school for outcasts that Wednesday (Jenna Ortega) attends, with second sight capabilities that trigger a Freaky Friday/body-swap interlude between Wednesday and her estranged friend Enid (Emma Myers). The multi-hyphenate artist also provides the song “The Dead Dance” to score what’s poised to be another social media dance trend akin to Ortega’s viral Season 1 moves to the Cramps’ “Goo Goo Muck.”
The Times spoke with creators and showrunners Al Gough and Miles Millar to break down the season. These are edited excerpts from the conversation.
You know where we have to start: Lady Gaga. Tell me the origin story of this casting.
Gough: It all grew out of the viral dance from the first season. Some fan, who should collect a lot of money, put Lady Gaga’s “Bloody Mary” [over the dance] — because it was “Goo Goo Muck”— and suddenly the dance became its own, whole new thing. We’ve always been huge Lady Gaga fans. And if there was anybody who was the ultimate outcast, it would be her. We just started a conversation with her and her team … is there a way for her to be involved in Season 2? We found this character — because obviously, she’s very busy and touring — that could be a small role, but it’s an impactful one. Out of that grew “The Dead Dance,” a song that she had which we heard a year ago and loved it. They’re like, “She’ll hold it for the show.” And we were like, “Oh my God.”
Millar: When we heard the lyrics, it was almost like she had written the song for the show. And we had this moment in Episode 7, which we’d always planned — we never wanted to repeat ourselves with Jenna doing a dance — but it feels like music and the show and dancing are integral now. To not scratch that itch creatively in Season 2, I think the audience would have been so disappointed. So it felt like, how do we honor the incredible Rave’N dance in Season 1, which became such an iconic moment, but do it in a way that’s different and celebrate new characters? That’s why we came up with the idea of the gala and seeing Agnes [Evie Templeton] and Enid come together. They’ve been antagonistic, and it felt like a beautiful moment of female friendship and blossoming and this incredible Gaga song was just like the icing on the cake.
I was expecting a long courting process when you’re trying to get Lady Gaga — like, writing letters.
Gough: The process wasn’t fast, but it was always very pleasant and complimentary. Everybody wanted it to work. I think that’s where we were starting from, is everybody wanted it to work.
Jenna Ortega as Wednesday Addams and Lady Gaga as Rosaline Rotwood. (Helen Sloan / Netflix)
There’s a lot of discussion right now about gaps between seasons, and obviously there were some factors that caused the gap here — namely the strikes, but also other projects. How do you feel about that, especially knowing the fan base skews younger? Is it harmful to maintaining that relationship with the material?
Millar: We certainly never wanted a three-year gap. I think the show feels like an event movie, in a weird way, so I think people are prepared to wait, but it’s not ideal. It’s something that we would never want ourselves, as viewers. It’s been gratifying that people have come back in the way they have, and we definitely feel their love for the show, but we had obstacles in terms of getting to that place, coming back. No one’s to blame. It’s just the reality of the strike and everything else. Now the focus is coming back quicker. We rolled right from production into the writers’ room; now we’re rolling right into production [on Season 3 in October]. We’re definitely on a faster cadence, and that’s certainly the plan moving forward.
That said, as hopefully you see on screen, it is a huge show. We have over 3,500 visual effects shots. We’re still finishing [the finale] this week. There are still shots that are going to be dropped in that monster fight on the roof, the fight in the clock tower. The most complex visual effects in the show actually is Professor Olaf, which is the Christopher Lloyd character. But that takes a lot of time and trial and error to get to the point where I think the show looks as good as it does. Certainly our imperative is to get the show back faster; I know Netflix has that goal and wish as well.
Gough: Our goal is we’ve got to create the best show we can create. As Miles said, it takes us a certain amount of time. When you get in your head like that, you can’t actually do your best work. I can guarantee you that’s something that the Netflix marketing department thinks about a lot. They certainly try to keep fans engaged online and through other ways. And the Netflix Houses now that have those [fan] experiences. Can you translate that and keep engagement? You’re right, there’s a lot of shows and movies out there and you want to be able to stay in the zeitgeist in that time when you’re not in the zeitgeist. But for us, at a certain point, we just got to create the show, try to keep all the noise outside.
In the space between Season 1 and 2, Jenna was pretty vocal about not connecting with the character choices from the first season. I’m curious how you felt as it happened? And what has “Wednesday” taught you about how to work with actors and how to consider their opinions or perspective about the material?
Gough: We’re not going to speak to some of that because we’ve spoken to it in previous interviews, but I think our philosophy has always been — from “Smallville” on down “Into the Badlands” — it is a collaboration and a conversation with the actors. We always say movies is a party, but a television show is like a family. They have to feel ownership. We had that with Jenna in Season 1 — she read all the scripts, she gave notes. She’s continued to do that in Season 2. She’s taken a more active role in terms of being in production meetings and understanding the marketing perspective and just having all of that. She’s a generational talent and she’s going to have a very long career, and the career will be more than just acting. Actors are the keeper of the world and they have to be able to [understand] their characters. We’ll take a good idea from anybody. You just want them to be engaged and to have good ideas and be thinking about their characters. It’s something we learned from John Wells, who we met with very early on, before we started running “Smallville,” to get his advice. That’s what he told us. As a creator, you have to have the vision for the show, but you have to be open to these ideas and funnel them through.
Enid (Emma Myers) and Wednesday (Jenna Ortega) in “Wednesday.” Season 2 explores the growing pains of the polar-opposite friends: “The end of Season 1, Wednesday made a friend, but then it’s like, OK, how do you be a friend?”
(Netflix)
Is it fair to say you took some of it into consideration because there was less of an emphasis on a love triangle, at least with Wednesday? We really see things build in the friendship between Enid and Wednesday.
Gough: The thing is, if your first boyfriend turns out to be a monster, there was never going to be like, “Oh, I can’t wait to dive back into a romance” idea. The show’s been in our head for six years; it was always like, Season 2 was once bitten, twice shy, especially if you’re Wednesday Addams — or once bitten, twice stabbed. That felt like the natural evolution. Again, she’s not a character who was, even Season 1 [boy crazy] and it worked great. People were invested and intrigued and wanted to know. I can tell you from having daughters — because most times it’s portrayed as the girls are loving for the boys. That’s not true in every situation. With my two daughters, it’s the boys who’ve been way more interested in the girls, and then they eventually come around or think, maybe I’ll do it. If you look at Season 1, Xavier and Tyler were way more interested in Wednesday. Wednesday had no interest and any time she even delved into what you would see as romance — she went to the dance because she thought he was a suspect. Wednesday never does anything because she goes with the flow. She’s either backed into a corner or it’s going to help her in her larger case. Even in that love triangle, we never betrayed Wednesday. She was never starry-eyed for either boy.
Millar: That love triangle worked, actually, very well. It’s the dramatic backbone of the season and leads Wednesday — because I think Wednesday, as we like to say, is often wrong; she is someone who just is very headstrong, and I think that’s what makes her so intriguing, that she’s complex and flawed. That’s an interesting thing for teenage female protagonist, who often aren’t that. It’s the journey of a teen; with Season 2, we can change it, and Jenna was in an agreement with that. It’s been a very successful partnership in terms of the steering the course of the character, and where she goes and how she behaves and what she says.
What were you interested in exploring between the Enid-Wednesday dynamic in Season 2? And how did you arrive at the body-swapping idea?
Gough: The end of Season 1, Wednesday made a friend, but then it’s like, OK, how do you be a friend? That’s something that she is still very Wednesday [about] and she still has her preconceived notions of Enid, which is, “I can’t tell her the secret, I have to save her. I can’t include her — she’s weak, she’ll lose her mind.” She doesn’t think that Enid can handle it, so she doesn’t really see her friend. With Enid, it’s even the case with Ajax, and moving on to Bruno, which is Ajax saw her one way, and she’s not that girl anymore.
The body-swap episode was a way to explore that so that they could see [what it’s like] literally walking a mile in somebody else’s shoes — in this case, their bodies — and seeing what it is that they appreciate about each other. It’s an idea that’s sitting there — they’re so polar opposites and they’re both such good actors that they’ve created characters with such specific quirks and body movement and cadences and things like that. To then put the one in the other, it just felt like, why wouldn’t we do that?
Millar: We’ve had moments of real darkness this season; we just need to have an episode where the audience is going to have the best time and it be a great ride. I remember we were on set and it was the moment where Enid wakes up in [Wednesday’s] body and starts screaming. Jenna can scream nonstop. She was screaming all day, but it was so incredible to hear. You didn’t know who it was really. It was complete transformation. It was definitely a challenge. It was more than halfway through the season, they were tired and it was a real testament to their resilience and professionalism that they really just went for it.
Gough: They would record each other doing the line so that they could hear. They studied like two A students. They really put everything into it.
The Addams family plays a bigger role this season. From left, Morticia (Catherine Zeta-Jones), Wednesday (Jenna Ortega), Gomez (Luis Guzmán) and Pugsley (Isaac Ordonez).
(Helen Sloan / Netflix)
You brought the Addams family further into the fold this season, particularly giving attention the mother-daughter dynamic between Morticia and Wednesday — their parallels, their tension.
Gough: The show‘s a comedy, it’s a satire, but it always comes down to [being] a family drama. Season 1 even went back Wednesday’s ancestor, Goody vs. Crackstone; then it was Gomez and Morticia vs. the Gates family. It all comes down to family secrets in this show. We wanted to expand that. The feedback we also got was people love the Addams Family and they’re intrigued by them because there’s no real mythology for the Addams Family. They didn’t have names until the TV show in the ’60s. Then you got a couple movies in the ’90s. People love them, but you don’t know much about them. For us, it’s great because it’s the opposite of “Smallville.” It is a clean slate where you can build the family tree. And we do it with the blessing of Kevin Miserocchi, who runs the Addams Foundation.
You got a taste of it in Season 1, with Morticia and Wednesday, and then you saw it in the Parents’ Weekend episode. But then the idea of Morticia is here, and what does that do? And the idea of this mother-daughter relationship, which especially in the teenage years, can be very fraught. They’re a lot more alike than they want to admit, on both ends. To take that very universal idea and relationship that a lot of people have experienced, but put it through the prism of the Addams Family with Morticia and Wednesday, and they solve their fights with swords and there’s more life-and-death sort of circumstances — that felt like a fun way to do it and a way to open up the show.
Millar: We really wanted to give Jenna some relief as well; she was in every scene of Season 1. It was a creative opportunity for us to explore different characters and to really expand the world of the show.
Thing, performed by Victor Dorobantu, and Jenna Ortega as Wednesday Addams in “Wednesday.” The rogue appendage received a backstory in Season 2.
(Netflix)
I loved getting an origin story for Thing.
Millar: The first thing you see of Slurp is this gloved hand coming out of the ground. We thought, “Oh, everyone’s going to know immediately; it’ll be the worst kept secret in Hollywood.” It’s been really gratifying because that’s such a great twist, if we could pull it off — it’s right in front of your face the whole time.
We talked about [whether Thing] should be attached to someone who is so evil. Obviously, he’s flawed. He’s often doing things for the right reasons; they’re sort of deranged reasons. But Isaac Night [Owen Painter] is a flawed character, but he’s also the noble genius as well. That was a debate. We had some other options we explored and went down the road with, but ultimately we thought it was this idea of transformation of seeing a zombie who then becomes human and the comic foil of Pugsley [Isaac Ordonez] choosing him like a pet dog, and then he starts eating brains — it just sounds so insane, but actually it make sense in the show.
Now I want to know the path you didn’t take with him.
Millar: We had a whole backstory for him, which is he was in a circus and he fell in love with a circus performer. It was a very much more sweet story, rather than this one, which is much more macabre, sort of inspired by Frankenstein, zombie movies.
What can you tease about Season 3? Will there be more Lady Gaga? Things ends with Enid being seemingly trapped in wolf mode and there’s Wednesday’s psychic vision of Ophelia, Morticia’s sister.
Millar: We’re in the middle of [writing] Season 3 now. Our lips are sealed. We can’t say anything, but obviously the end of Season 2 does set up that Ophelia will be coming to feature in Season 3. We’ll say that much.
ISTANBUL — During a pool training session months ago, Ukrainian war veteran Oleh Tserkovnyi was struck by an idea: What if a group of veterans swam across the strait of Bosphorus, between Turkey’s European and Asian shores? And if they did it on Aug. 24, Ukraine’s Independence Day?
The symbolism of the day would draw attention to the toll and devastation inflicted by Russia’s full-out war on Ukraine, now in its fourth year.
When the 34-year-old pitched the idea to fellow veterans in their One for Another support group, none raised injuries, particularly their amputations, as a barrier. Two joined him right away.
They trained for months, with the support of Superhumans Center, a veterans’ rehabilitation clinic in Ukraine, and coached by CapitalTRI, an amateur triathlon team in Kyiv. They agreed their race would have another goal — to raise money for prosthetics, which remain costly and urgently needed by many of Ukraine’s wounded.
“We’re not asking for pity,” Tserkovnyi told The Associated Press shortly before the competition. “We’re asking for support.”
A race that links continents
After months of rigorous training, discipline and physical challenges, the three Ukrainian veterans on Sunday joined more than 2,800 swimmers from 81 countries in the 6.5-kilometer (4-mile) crossing from Asia to Europe.
The Bosphorus Intercontinental Swimming Race is an open-water event held each year in Istanbul, organized by the Turkish Olympic Committee since 1989.
All three Ukrainians completed the crossing, each swimming for more than an hour. The two veterans with amputations faced setbacks even before the start — the organizers initially barred them from competing, insisting they have to be in a separate category for people with disabilities.
But they persevered and swam the race, alongside the others.
For the Ukrainians, it wasn’t just about endurance but about reclaiming control over bodies transformed by war — and sharing their recovery with a world that often seems indifferent to the injuries they carry.
Seeking balance in the water
Sports had always been a part of Tserkovnyi’s life, but war and injury pushed him to use it as a survival tool after two severe, life-changing concussions — a bridge back to life for war veterans with disabilities.
“Sport itself heals — we’ve seen that firsthand,” he said. “And the community, it pulls you through. It pushes you, it disciplines you.”
When he speaks, he’s quick to point out the changes he sees in himself — the stutter, the involuntary twitch in his eye.
“It’s what’s left over. It used to be much worse,” he said.
Both of his concussions were the result of prolonged exposure to artillery fire while serving on the front line. He was a sniper when the second one hit. Afterward, he said, it felt like he had lost his sense of balance entirely.
“There were times I could walk, but then suddenly I’d just tip over like a pencil,” Tserkovnyi said. “I have third-degree hearing loss on one side, no peripheral vision.”
The sense of being “a sick person,” he said, felt so foreign to him that he threw himself into recovery with everything he had. For a long time, he also had PTSD symptoms, including dramatic flashbacks to the war.
But it was in the pool that he found a way to recognize the warning signs. “I began to understand what triggers them, when they come, and how to stay ahead of them,” he said.
A path back to oneself
Engineer Pavlo Tovstyk signed up as a volunteer in the early days after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Serving as a driver in an intelligence unit, he stepped on a landmine in June 2023.
The blast took his foot and subsequent surgeries led to a partial amputation of his left leg.
The 47-year-old, who used to be an active swimmer as a child, never thought swimming would become a lifeline. He was still recovering from his injury when he began sneaking into the swimming pool, keeping it a secret from the doctors.
“Water became a kind of savior for me,” he said. “At the time, everything felt disoriented. But in the water, my thoughts, my strength, my body — it all came together again. I became myself again. Just … different.”
The idea to swim the strait in Turkey started almost as a dare, then became a plan.
“To cross the Bosphorus, you need not just physical strength, but a certain mindset — a state of determination that all of us managed to find within ourselves,” he said.
Calm found in purpose
Oleksandr Dashko discovered swimming only after losing his left leg.
The 28-year-old had joined the military at the start of the Russian invasion and served in the infantry in various front-line areas.
In June 2023, a mine exploded near him and shrapnel tore into his knee.
“I didn’t take it very graciously, let’s say,” he said as he recounted the conflicted feelings that tormented him for so long. Adjustment to life with an amputation has been slow and mentally taxing.
It was only over the past year that he was able to focus on physical rehabilitation — and swimming, he said, has become the activity that brings him a sense of calm.
The challenge of swimming the Bosphorus became a purpose for Dashko.
“When I do nothing, I slip back to that state right after the injury — depression, apathy, the feeling that the amputation is winning,” he said. “But when something like this shows up on my path, it gives me a jolt — to live, to move forward, to motivate others.”
Physical goals, he said, help anchor him. He hopes for more such challenges, not just for himself, but for other veterans.
“Honestly, if it weren’t for this, I’d probably be drunk and lying under a fence somewhere,” he said.
Maloletka and Arhirova write for the Associated Press. Arhirova reported from Kyiv, Ukraine.
The glass partition wall in Lisa Hanawalt’s office is lined with reference sheets dedicated to the members of the central family in “Long Story Short.”
Each page lists a character’s name, birth month and year — along with their zodiac sign — and a dated timeline of full body images that tracks how they look at different ages. Depending on the character, this includes their designs as children, teens and middle-aged adults.
During a mid-August morning at ShadowMachine studio, Hanawalt sits at her desk, pulling up different looks of earlier incarnations of the characters that she did before their final designs were set along with newer works in progress. Raphael Bob-Waksberg sits just behind her as they point out little details that they’re fond of and bounce their thoughts back and forth on whether certain characters might drastically change their appearance one year, as people tend to do.
“It’s a fun thing you don’t get to do on a lot of animated shows,” says Bob-Waksberg, the creator and showrunner of “Long Story Short.” “To evolve with our characters and dress them up and have so many different looks for them.”
On most animated sitcoms, characters are trapped in time: perpetually the same age, usually wearing the same clothes, rarely even getting a haircut — no matter how many holiday episodes they get through the years. Not so on “Long Story Short,” where the passage of time is a feature.
“It’s really fun to get to know the characters and to think about their aesthetic,” says Hanawalt, the show’s supervising producer. “We have to draw a lot of different versions of everybody.”
Siblings Shira, left, Yoshi and Avi Schwooper in “Long Story Short.”
(Netflix)
Launching Friday on Netflix, “Long Story Short” follows the Schwoopers, a Bay Area family whose portmanteau last name is a blend of the parents’ Schwartz and Cooper, through the ups and downs of their lives. The show’s cast includes Lisa Edelstein and Paul Reiser, who voice the parents Naomi and Elliot, respectively, and Ben Feldman, Abbi Jacobson and Max Greenfield as the Schwooper children, Avi, Shira and Yoshi.
Their story unfolds over time across both everyday happenings and milestones, with each self-contained episode jumping between moments that reverberate from anywhere in the 1950s to 2020s.
“It feels cumulative, even though the episodes themselves are not necessarily connected directly,” Bob-Waksberg says. “We thought a lot about emotional arcs more than narrative arcs. Can we feel like these characters have gone on a journey, even though we’re seeing the [story] out of order?”
“Long Story Short” is Bob-Waksberg’s first new show since the conclusion of “Bojack Horseman,” the acclaimed adult animated series that ended in 2020, about a washed up former sitcom star and his struggles set in an alternate Hollywood where humans lived alongside anthropomorphic animals. While “Bojack” didn’t shy away from showing how terrible parents were the root cause of various characters’ troubles, “Long Story Short” is a more nuanced take on dysfunction where it’s not as easy to place blame.
“As you get older, you kind of realize, we’re all screwed up in different ways and most of us didn’t have parents that bad,” Bob-Waksberg says. “We had parents who were trying and in some ways succeeding, and in other ways, not quite giving us what we needed.”
The show marks the pair’s third animated series together. Hanawalt served as the production designer and producer on “Bojack” before developing her own series, “Tuca & Bertie,” on which Bob-Waksberg served as an executive producer. But their easy rapport as they comment on a short clip of sauce exploding and whether a character is the type of person to only own one suit — as well as when the conversation detours into listing actors they insist the other likes after a missed film reference — makes it obvious that their friendship runs much deeper.
Longtime friends Raphael Bob-Waksberg and Lisa Hanawalt have previously worked together on “Bojack Horseman” and “Tuca & Bertie.”
(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)
Bob-Waksberg and Hanawalt explain that even during their high school years in Palo Alto, where they crossed paths as theater kids and became friends, they would talk about working on projects together and dream up TV show ideas. Describing Hanawalt as one of his favorite people and artists, Bob-Waksberg says she is the first person he thinks of whenever he needs someone for artistic work.
After hearing Bob-Waksberg’s idea for “Long Story Short,” “I just immediately felt like I knew what it should look like,” says Hanawalt. “That it should look like Sunday funnies, comics and ‘Peanuts.’ … I thought this should be more hand-drawn and loose. The warmth of the show, but also playing against how serious some of the subject matter is, I thought [that style] would help warm it up a bit.”
Though Hanawalt says backgrounds are not her forte, she had a vision of what she saw for the world and started drawing houses and buildings that resembled those they grew up in. Bob-Waksberg credits that as the reason for the show being set in Northern California.
Another reason Hanawalt wanted to work on the show was because it involved designing humans — something she’s leaned away from in the past.
“All the other stuff I get sent is for animals [and] animal people,” she says. “People see me as the animal lady, which I am — I do love anthropomorphic animals and plants. But I was actually leaning toward something more realistic. … I don’t want to get pigeonholed. And doing the same thing over and over, it gets really boring to me. So this was a fun challenge, drawing humans that are as cute as animals.”
Hearing this, Bob-Waksberg is amused by how aspects from their past have come to define them.
“I was just thinking about how 13, 14 years ago, I was developing a whole bunch of TV shows,” he says. “The one that went was the animated one and now I’m a cartoon guy, which I don’t resent. It’s been very good for me. But it’s so funny, [to think that] there’s another universe in which this other show went and then I’d be known as that kind of writer.”
The Schwooper family in an episode of “Long Story Short.”
(Netflix)
Both Bob-Waksberg and Hanawalt acknowledge it’s still a tough time for the industry, including for writers looking for work and creatives trying to get things made. Both mention having pitched different ideas that they were certain would be their next projects that ultimately went nowhere.
“I’m glad to work on this because I’m happy to not be a showrunner right now,” Hanawalt admits. “‘Tuca & Bertie’ wiped me out [and] I didn’t have enough juice to keep pitching.”
Still, Bob-Waksberg believes animation is one of the few places were shows based on original ideas have a chance, and for that he and Hanawalt are both grateful because they’d rather work on their own ideas than play in someone else’s sandbox. In other spaces, studios appear to only show interest on ideas based on existing IP like a book, news article or podcast. They also remain hopeful that, in time, things will get better.
“The appetite for original, good shows and animated shows is always there,” Hanawalt says. “That’s consistent. The audience is there. It’s just a matter of getting it to them.”
Although the show centers a Jewish family in Northern California and includes nods to his upbringing, Bob-Waksberg has been clear that “Long Story Short” is not autobiographical. But it is deeply personal. He explains that discussing the novel “Interior Chinatown,” which confronts the interplay of representation and identity, with author Charles Yu was one of the things that made him think about what it would be like to address his own identity in his work.
“It felt like it opened up this new door of story possibility that I hadn’t considered before,” Bob-Waksberg says. “One of the interesting things about working on this show is unpacking [how], especially in conversation with my other writers and the actors and other people, some things that I attributed to being Jewish is just my family.”
“Long Story Short” showrunner Raphael Bob-Waksberg and supervising producer Lisa Hanawalt.
(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)
While the series addresses the “trauma” — in quotes depending on which character you ask — rooted in people’s upbringing, it’s also filled with plenty of humor and heart. Most episodes are zoomed in on whatever more personal issue the Schwoopers are facing, and the passage of time is conveyed through characters’ ages and appearances rather than by referencing specific happenings and headlines that might be associated with that story’s era.
But one global event the series does acknowledge is the COVID-19 pandemic. For Bob-Waksberg, it was important to do so because it’s a collective trauma that affected everyone and should be remembered as such.
“This was a real dividing point for our world and for us all as individuals,” Bob-Waksberg says. “I feel like it’s been underrepresented in pop culture in a weird way [and] we all were very quick to move on.”
“Let’s not pretend that it never happened,” he continued. “I do feel like, as a storyteller, it is in some ways my job to be a document of the world.”
Recalling how important it was for him to hear stories from Holocaust survivors about their experiences when he was younger, Bob-Waksberg adds: “I don’t want to forget about these things.”
There’s no place like Sydney, finds Virginia Blackburn, who headed to the Australian city, which she foune to be far more sophisticated and cosmopolitan than she’d been expecting
Israel’s far-right finance minister has approved plans for thousands of illegal homes in the occupied West Bank — saying it ‘buries the idea of a Palestinian state’. Bezalel Smotrich announced 3,401 illegal housing units will be built in the controversial E1 settlement project.
AN ENTREPRENEUR whose restaurant idea was rejected as “a disaster” on Dragons’ Den is set to open 100 new outlets of his popular chain.
Alessandro Savelli, who co-founded Pasta Evangelists and currently serves as its CEO, says the chain is aiming to become the UK’s “fastest-growing, casual dining hot spot”.
5
Pasta Evangelists was panned by business experts on Dragons’ Den in 2018Credit: BBC
5
Now, the company is worth millions of pounds and is aiming to open 100 new restaurants across the UKCredit: Pasta Evangelists – Supplied
5
The co-founders had asked for a £75,000 investment for a 2.5 per cent stake in the company during their appearance on the BBC showCredit: BBC
Now worth around £40 million, Pasta Evangelists was rejected on Dragons’ Den by business experts in 2018 when Savelli and co-founder Finn Lagun asked for a £75,000 investment for a 2.5 per cent cut of the company.
Dragon Jenny Campbell even called Finn “delusional” and “a disaster” during their pitch.
However, the entrepreneurs have no doubt had the last laugh as their business is now set for major expansion.
Pasta Evangelists says it will invest £30 million into new restaurants, creating up to 1,500 jobs.
It hopes to open 100 new restaurants across the UK in the next five years, including in the south of England, the Midlands, and Scotland.
The company is also aiming to develop a “Pasta Apprenticeship” scheme to attract new staff and help the current workforce develop new skills and knowledge, reports The Grocer.
Savelli said: “The demand for our fresh, beautifully cooked artisan pasta is growing.
“Our intention is to become the UK’s fastest-growing, casual dining hot spot and the hottest place to eat for pasta lovers of all ages.
“Sustainable growth has always been our plan.
“The hospitality industry is going through tough times at the moment, but we are confident that our business model is robust and dynamic, and the proof of this is we have already bucked the trend with the confirmed opening of five more restaurants in the space of three months, and more to come.”
Pasta Evangelists enter Dragons Den
The chain opened a restaurant in Farringdon, central London, this summer as well as its first outside of the capital in Guildford in July.
Three new London locations are set to open in the coming weeks, helping carry the total number of outlets to 11 as we head into autumn.
Chancellor Rachel Reeves said the plans were “great news” and highlighted the “dynamism and resilience of British businesses”.
The restaurant has had a remarkable success story since its Dragons’ Den miss.
Recalling their appearance on the BBC show, Finn said he was “shaking life a leaf” before walking out to pitch his business.
He added that he was left devastated by the business experts’ “vicious” comments.
Speaking to The Sun in 2023, he said: “I never would have expected to be called a ‘disaster’ or ‘delusional‘ on national TV – they were vicious things to say to a young entrepreneur.
“To use that kind of language against a young, passionate person was dismaying. I would never talk to any young entrepreneur like that.”
Despite their lack of faith in the business, the Dragons are no doubt feeling red in the face now as Pasta Evangelists is one of the UK’s biggest fresh pasta companies.
It has also earned the highest praise from many voices, including chef Gordon Ramsay.
SCARRED BY EXPERIENCE ON DRAGONS’ DEN
While Pasta Evangelists has gone on to huge success, Finn says he’s still scarred by his experience in the Den.
“We received an extremely strong, negative, visceral reaction,” he says.
“I was 24 years old when I went on Dragons’ Den, so for a seasoned entrepreneur like Jenny Campbell to call me ‘delusional’ and a ‘disaster’ was so vicious… Jenny was savage.
“At one point she said, ‘I like it’ and I replied, ‘Thank you’, only for her to say, ‘I like it because it’s a brilliant business lesson in how not to set up and run a business’.
“I was mortified, I felt like an idiot having grinned at her and thanked her. She was deliberately trying to take me for a ride for entertainment.”
Finn adds: “I don’t want to sound like the Virgin Mary but if the tables were turned and I was Jenny Campbell, I would have apologised.
“If I saw the business had turned into the UK’s biggest pasta company in a few years I’d say, ‘Well done, you defied expectations’ and maybe even offer a little contrition or an apology.”
5
Finn Lagun said he was left scarred by his experience on the showCredit: BBC
5
Pasta Evangelists will operate 11 stores across southern England by the end of summerCredit: Pasta Evangelists
Real Madrid has said that it “firmly rejects” having a regular-season Spanish league game played in the United States and warned of “a turning point in the world of football”.
Villarreal, in contrast, is promising free travel and tickets for season-ticket holders if its match against Barcelona in Miami is approved, in what would be a first for the league. The 17th-round match in La Liga would be played at Hard Rock Stadium, the home of Barca legend Lionel Messi’s Inter Miami.
Madrid said on Tuesday that it has taken action to keep the December 20 match from happening in the US, claiming it would hurt the “integrity of the competition” and the “legitimacy of the results”.
“The measure, which was taken without prior information or consultation of the clubs participating in the competition, infringes the essential principle of territorial reciprocity, which applies in two-legged league competitions (one match at home and the other at the home of the opposing team), upsetting the competitive balance and giving an undue sporting advantage to the applicant clubs,” Madrid said.
The club said the match would set “an unacceptable precedent that opens the door to exceptions based on non-sporting interests, clearly affecting sporting integrity and risking the adulteration of the competition”.
“If this proposal were to be carried out, its consequences would be so serious that it would be a turning point in the world of football,” Madrid said.
The Europe-wide fan group Football Supporters Europe (FSE) said it was “liaising” with members, soccer stakeholders, affected groups and partner organisations to “collectively resist the latest threat to the very nature of football”.
“We are following the broader impact on football with the utmost concern,” the group said. “Moving games from their domestic territories strikes at the heart of the relationship between fans and their teams, breaking vital links between clubs and their communities.”
The group also criticised a similar move by the Italian league to play a match abroad.
The Italian football federation said in July that a plan was in motion to play the Serie A match between AC Milan and Como in the Australian city of Perth in February.
Madrid asks FIFA and UEFA to withhold permission for Barcelona game
Madrid said it has asked FIFA, UEFA and Spain’s top sport body to not authorise the game in the US. The Spanish football federation on Monday approved a request for the match to be played in Miami. UEFA and FIFA now have to approve the request before it can be made official.
“Any modification of this nature must, in any case, have the express and unanimous agreement of all the clubs participating in the competition, as well as strictly respecting the national and international rules governing the organization of official competitions,” Madrid said.
Madrid and the Spanish league president, Javier Tebas, have often been at odds on various issues.
The club said UEFA should deny the request to play the game abroad, based on the “criterion established in 2018 that prevents official matches in domestic competitions from being played outside national territory, except in duly justified exceptional circumstances, which are not present here”.
Madrid said it asked the country’s high sport council “not to grant the necessary administrative authorization without such unanimous consent”.
“Real Madrid reaffirms its commitment to respect the national and international rules that guarantee the fairness and proper functioning of official competitions, and will defend its compliance with them before all competent bodies,” the club said.
Villarreal hoping to expand its brand in US
Villarreal earlier on Tuesday said that its season ticket-holders can travel for free and receive free tickets for the match. It said those who do not want to go, or cannot go, will get a 20 percent discount on their season tickets.
“We would be the first [Spanish] team to play a league match abroad,” Villarreal’s president, Fernando Roig, told a news conference. “It would greatly help us expand our brand in a key market like the United States.”
Staging a match abroad has long been part of the league’s goal to promote football and its brand in other countries.
It first tried to stage a match in the US in 2018, with a game between Barcelona and Girona, but the idea was dismissed after criticism from players, fans and clubs. Subsequent attempts to play there also failed.
The league had offered compensation packages for Girona fans in 2018.
It was not clear whether it would be Villarreal or the league paying for the travel and tickets for the club’s fans this time.
The attempts to play in the US are part of the league’s long-term partnership with sport and entertainment group Relevent Sports, which is part of Stephen Ross’s portfolio of companies, including Hard Rock Stadium, the Miami Dolphins, the Formula One’s Miami Grand Prix and the Miami Open tennis tournament.
Earlier this year, it was announced that New York-based Relevent Sports has exclusive negotiating rights over the global commercial rights to the UEFA men’s club competitions for the period 2027-2033.
FIFA moved last year towards ending decades of football tradition by ordering a review of its policy that blocks domestic league games from being played in other countries.
Some fan groups in Spain and the country’s players’ association on Monday expressed their disapproval of the plan to move the match thousands of kilometres away.
It has become routine, though, for US pro sport leagues to stage games in Europe, Asia and South America that help build their brands and fan bases.
A MUM has tragically died a week after coming back from a holiday abroad.
Amanda Cugini, from Cardiff died on July 22 after coming back from Tunisia.
The 47-year-old worked at a local child care nursery and was just about to be fully qualified as a day care nurse.
Her husband David Cugini was with her when she “got into difficulty” and tried to resuscitate her but was unable to.
The family does not currently know what caused Amanda’s death.
“It’s kind of a cliché but she was one in a million,” David said. “She reached out and touched more people that I’m ever going to know.”
“I was with Amanda for 18 years and I knew Amanda for 10 years before that as friends, so I’ve known her a long time and I’m still now getting to hear and meet new people for the first time, who she’d have touched in her life.
“She was an amazing mum, she was an amazing nan to my two grandsons. She was the life and soul of the party. She lit up the room when she walked in.
“It’s the same stuff as what other people say, but not in Mandy’s way. Mandy was different, she was special.”
David said their family had seen hardships, with Amanda losing her parents, as well as the Covid pandemic and the cost of living crisis, but that she always strove to help others.
“Life has been hard, but someone like Mandy, I always say she would have found a pound and made sure that you either had it all or you’d certainly have half, because she was just a giver,” he explained.
He said Amanda’s loss has left a significant impact on her family, particularly her children. “To be honest, it’s very, very hard,” David said.
“So confusing, upsetting and everything, all rolled into one.
“There are late nights where we sit in with the children and just comfort them because they’re missing mum so much.”
Their family has tried to return to normalcy, playing music and singing like they used to do, but he said their grief comes and goes.
“One minute we’re all laughing, thinking over ‘imagine what mum would have said’ and then next minute we’re all hysterical, emotionally devastated, and crying.”
David said he feels thankful to the community, his family and his friends for their support.
“I’ve been overwhelmed, to be honest, with the outpouring of love and support. The children are the closest to me, so we’ve got each other first, and then it’s a reflection on the friends, family and everybody.
“Even strangers are showing love and support because it’s such a devastating thing for such a beautiful lady at such a young age. It’s been very quick, sudden, very shocking.”
Amanda leaves behind David, her daughters aged 17 and 10, and a stepdaughter aged 34.
She was also a nan to two grandsons.
A GoFundMe was set up to help pay for her funeral.
1
Amanda Cugini, from Cardiff died on July 22 after coming back from TunisiaCredit: GoFundMe
A Texas Lyme-disease researcher who came to the U.S. from South Korea at age 5 and is a longtime legal permanent resident was detained at San Francisco International Airport for a week, according to his lawyer.
Tae Heung “Will” Kim, 40, was returning from his brother’s wedding in South Korea on July 21 when he was pulled out of secondary screening for unknown reasons, said Eric Lee, an attorney who says he’s been unable to talk with his client.
Lee said that he has no idea where Kim is now and that Kim has not been allowed to communicate with anyone aside from a brief call last week to his family. A Senate office told him that Kim was being moved to an immigration facility in Texas, while a representative from the Korean Consulate told Kim’s family that he was going to be sent somewhere else.
“We have no idea where he is going to end up,” Lee said. “We have no idea why.”
Kim has misdemeanor marijuana possession charges from 2011 on his record, but his lawyer questioned whether that was the kind of offense that would merit being held in a windowless room underneath the terminals at the airport for a week.
Representatives from the Department of Homeland Security did not immediately respond to a request for comment from the L.A. Times. But a spokesperson for Customs and Border Protection told the Washington Post, which first reported the story, that “this alien is in ICE custody pending removal hearings.”
The spokesperson also said: “If a green card holder is convicted of a drug offense, violating their status, that person is issued a Notice to Appear and CBP coordinates detention space with [Immigration and Customs Enforcement].”
Kim’s attorney said if his client was detained because he “had a little weed when he was pulled over 15 years ago in his 20s,” that was absurd, adding: “If every American who had a tiny amount of weed in their car was detained under these conditions…”
Kim’s mother, Yehoon “Sharon” Lee, told the Washington Post that she was worried about her son’s health in custody.
“He’s had asthma ever since he was younger,” she told the Washington Post. “I don’t know if he has enough medication. He carries an inhaler, but I don’t know if it’s enough, because he’s been there a week.”
His mother told the paper that she and her husband entered the U.S. on business visas in the 1980s but by the time they became naturalized citizens, Kim was too old to get automatic citizenship.
Kim has a green card and has spent most of his life in the U.S. After helping out in his family’s doll-manufacturing business after the death of his father, he recently entered a doctoral program at Texas A&M and is helping to research a vaccine for Lyme disease.
There have been multiple reports nationwide of U.S. permanent residents being detained at airports, particularly those with criminal records, no matter how minor. These cases have prompted some experts to warn that green-card holders should avoid leaving the country, to reduce the risk of not being allowed back.
Punk rock is not the first thing one might associate with a children’s puppet show. But on Sunday morning at the Ford Theater, L.A. punk pioneers Juanita y Juan and puppeteers from the Bob Baker Marionette Theater put local kids to the test.
After a morning spent crafting their own paper marionettes in the foyer, children marched towards the stage to revel in the weirdness of Juanita y Juan’s electro-cumbia guitar jams — a musical fusion they call “loud lounge.”
The duo was accompanied by vintage marionettes and their handlers, who played backup dancers in the shapes of jellyfish, cats and aliens. Families bounced and gently moshed along to the drum machine beats as “Juan,” also known as Kid Congo Powers, regaled them with a story about his hair catching on fire while playing a candlelit punk show with the Cramps.
And when a couple of rowdy kids started to climb onstage, bouncers swiftly intervened. “Oh, that’s very punk!” said “Juanita,” better known as Alice Bag.
(Evelina Gabrielle Perez / For De Los)
It was a familiar scenario for Bag and Powers. When the two first crossed paths in the 1970s — one being the front woman of the Bags, the other a guitarist in such bands as the Gun Club, the Cramps and later Pink Monkey Birds — they could hardly surmise how influential their scrappy community would become in its nascent years.
“We were all trying to create some kind of new subculture or protest against the bland music of the day,” said Kid in a Zoom call before the show. “We bonded under the flag of punk rock,” added Bag.
In the storied history of the Los Angeles punk scene, Chicanos were, and remain, permanent fixtures. But after predominantly white bands like Germs, X and the Go-Go’s were commemorated in countless books and documentaries as architects of the genre, Bag and Powers decided to start sharing their own perspectives as Mexican Americans who broke the mold.
But it was after collaborating on a song for the 2022 Peacock mystery series “The Resort” that their duo, Juanita y Juan, was born. They spoke to De Los about their salad days, their new album, “Jungle Cruise” and how young Latinos can navigate this time of upheaval in the U.S.
The following interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
(Evelina Gabrielle Perez / For De Los)
Tell me about your supergroup, Juanita y Juan. What sparked this idea for you?
Kid Congo Powers: Juanita and Juan are the alter egos of Alice and I. Our reference was Marty & Elayne, who were a cabaret covers act at the Dresden Room [in Los Feliz]. They got a huge following; they were in the movie “Swingers.” And the songs are fun.
We first reconnected as friends after Alice [released] her book, “Violence Girl.” Then we got asked to write a song for a [2022] TV show on Peacock called “The Resort.” Me and Alice are on the same label, In the Red Records, out of L.A. They asked for a song by “a beach lounge act,” and they wanted it to be in Spanish. We are both Mexican Americans, Chicanos, but I thought, “Alice is much more fluent in Spanish.” She was like, “Why don’t we try to do it as a duet?” And they liked that idea.
Alice Bag: With “The Resort,” we had a springboard of this “loud lounge” idea. But it morphed into several different things that were very much our personality, and very much not something we would normally do — exploring different rhythms, like Latin rhythms and tropical rhythms. I spent a month in Tucson, and we actually wrote and recorded songs [that became the album] “Jungle Cruise.”
So how did this puppet show come into play?
K.C.G.: The [Bob Baker] Marionette Theater heard our music and thought it would be appropriate for a kids’ punk thing.
A.B.: I have actually worked with Bob Baker’s Marionette Theater before. We did a video together for a song on my “Sister Dynamite” album, which was released in 2020. Also, I’m a former teacher. I used to take my classes to the old theater, so I have a very warm association with childhood and how enchanted kids are when they see a puppet show.
(Evelina Gabrielle Perez/For De Los)
You both are really inspiring to me as Latinos who helped shape punk in its very early days. Learning about you and other Latin punks like Jeffrey Lee Pierce (The Gun Club) was affirming to me as a young Latina and punk. How did you two connect over your Mexican American experience?
A.B.: There were a lot of Latinos in the early punk scene. Not just Kid and I, but like, Trudie Arguelles, who was the face of L.A. punk.
K.C.P.: Yeah, she was the it girl.
A.B.: And Margot Olavarria, who was the original bassist for the Go-Go’s, was a big shot in the scene. Tito Larriva, who formed the Plugs. Robert Lopez, Hector Penalosa, all the Zeros! There were a lot of Latinos around. But I think one of the things that happened is — I’m Alice Bag, although Bag is not my last name. Our last names got lost, and people just thought of the band names as our family names, like the Ramones! We banded under the flag of punk rock.
Our ethnicity was present, but it wasn’t always the first thing that you noticed about us because of how we dressed. People did not know what punk was. They would make comments like, “Is the circus in town? Are these people in a gang? Are they they gonna beat us up?” So we bonded, and we had to hang out together as self-defense. We were the weirdos.
Alice, in your memoir (“Violence Girl”) you spoke about the tension between the Mexican cultural mores that you grew up with and what you were creating anew with punk.
A.B.: I think people got the wrong idea about me very early on because they knew I was from East L.A. I grew up around gang culture and learned to stick up for myself, so people thought I was scary. Even Kid Congo Powers said I was scary.
Did you think she was scary?
K.C.P.: I thought she was intense. Anything could happen when Alice Bag got on stage. And that was what drew me to her and the band. There was a menace to them, something volatile. This could be a riot, or it could be an orgy.
And Kid knows chaos very well. You held your own in bands like the Cramps. Could you think of a Latin entertainer who helped influence your own performance?
K.C.P.: Iris Chacón.
Wow, I didn’t know you got down like that!
K.C.P.: My mom watched her on TV. That was exciting.
A.B.: That’s where he got his maraca work from.
K.C.P.: And my outfits. But there was Ritchie Valens, of course. I like old rock ‘n’ roll. And then when I met Jeffrey Lee Pierce of the Gun Club in 1978 or ‘79, we bonded on being Chicano. We both grew up in San Gabriel Valley — me in La Puente, Jeffrey in El Monte. We’d reference riffs coming out of a garage in La Puente, some Chicano garage band playing Santana or War. We shared the outsider-ness of being born in America, but we were in Chicano world. And throw in the fact that I knew I was queer from a young age … I didn’t know if I was in or out.
A.B.: My influences were from Spanish-language music. Raphael was a Spanish singer who’s very intense and very dramatic. And I also am a big fan of José Alfredo Jiménez, who wrote all these ranchera songs that were very emotional. I think there’s a connection between ranchera music and punk — it’s for everybody. It’s better when everybody joins in and sings along. Punk and ranchera are the people’s music.
That calls to mind the resurgence of corridos among young people. Some of the songs generate controversy, but it’s interesting to see a similarly rebellious spirit as punk. What do you think?
K.C.P.: People are always saying to me, “Don’t you feel sorry for young people today? They don’t have what you had, this and that.” But I would never in my life underestimate younger people. There’s something going on, and I don’t know about it. You don’t know about it, because it’s not for us to know about.
You both have shown many Latinos how to live authentically to your identity, to your values. What’s a quick bite of encouragement or advice for young, weird Latino kids? Especially now, when it’s hard not to feel demoralized about what’s happening across the country?
K.C.P.: Well, to live authentically is a path that can be lonely. But it’s also very empowering. And I get to be in my 60s and say I’ve done music exactly as I’ve pleased. That is possible. I had no idea how to play guitar until Jeffrey Lee Pierce said, “Here’s a guitar. I think you can do this. And you’re gonna do it.” I thought, “If this one person believes in me, then I’m gonna try it.” You just have to say yes to yourself.
A.B.: I would also say you’re not alone. Every day, there’s a bombardment of things in the world and in the U.S. that you want to resist. It’s very easy to become despondent and overwhelmed. But you don’t have to feel like you’re lifting this whole weight by yourself. It’s important to know that you do have a community that stands with you. We’re all working in different ways. We’re all a band. We’re going to make it through this together.
Believe it or not, France has had a form of social security since the 1600s, and its modern system began in earnest in 1910, when the world’s life expectancy was just 32 years old. Today the average human makes it to 75 and for the French, it’s 83, among the highest in Europe.
Great news for French people, bad news for their pensions.
Because people are living longer, the math to fund pensions in France is no longer mathing, and now the country’s debt is nearly 114% of its GDP. Remember it was just a couple of years ago when protesters set parts of Paris on fire because President Emmanuel Macron proposed raising the age of legal retirement from 62 to 64. Well, now Prime Minister Francois Bayrou has proposed eliminating two national holidays, in an attempt to address the country’s debt.
In 2023, before Paris was burning, roughly 50,000 people in Denmark gathered outside of Parliament to express their anger over ditching one of the country’s national holidays. The roots of Great Prayer Day date all the way back to the 1600s. Eliminating it — with the hopes of increasing production and tax revenue — brought together the unions, opposing political parties and churches in a rare trifecta. That explains why a number of schools and businesses closed for the holiday in 2024 in defiance of the official change.
This week, Bayrou proposed eliminating France’s Easter Monday and Victory Day holidays, the latter marking the defeat of Nazi Germany. In a Reuters poll, 70% of respondents didn’t like the idea, so we’ll see if Paris starts burning again. Or maybe citizens will take a cue from the Danes and just not work on those days, even if the government decides to continue business as usual.
Here at home, President Trump has also floated the idea of eliminating one of the national holidays. However, because he floated the idea on Juneteenth — via a social media post about “too many non-working holidays” — I’m going to assume tax revenue wasn’t the sole motivation for his comments that day. You know, given his crusade against corporate and government diversity efforts; his refusal to apologize for calling for the death penalty for five innocent boys of color; and his approval of Alligator Alcatraz. However, while I find myself at odds with the president’s 2025 remarks about the holiday, I do agree with what he said about Juneteenth when he was president in 2020: “It’s actually an important event, an important time.”
Indeed.
While the institution of slavery enabled this country to quickly become a global power, studies show the largest economic gains in the history of the country came from slavery’s ending — otherwise known as Juneteenth. Two economists have found that the economic payoff from freeing enslaved people was “bigger than the introduction of railroads, by some estimates, and worth 7 to 60 years of technological innovation in the latter half of the 19th century,” according to the University of Chicago. Why? Because the final calculations revealed the cost to enslave people for centuries was far greater than the economic benefit of their freedom.
In 1492, when Christopher Columbus “discovered America,” civilizations had been thriving on this land for millennia. The colonizers introduced slavery to these shores two years before the first “Thanksgiving” in 1621. That was more than 50 years before King Louis XIV started France’s first pension; 60 years before King Christian V approved Great Prayer Day; and 157 years before the 13 colonies declared independence from Britain on July 4, 1776.
Of all the national holidays around the Western world, it would appear Juneteenth is among the most significant historically. Yet it gained federal recognition just four years ago, and it remains vulnerable. The transatlantic slave trade transformed the global economy, but the numbers show it was Juneteenth that lifted America to the top. Which tells you the president’s hint at its elimination has little to do with our greatness and everything to do with the worldview of an elected official who was endorsed by the newspaper of the Ku Klux Klan.
If it does get to the point where we — like France and Denmark — end up seriously considering cutting a holiday, my vote is for Thanksgiving. The retail industry treats it like a speed bump between Halloween and Christmas, and when history retells its origins, it’s not a holiday worth protesting to keep.
The following AI-generated content is powered by Perplexity. The Los Angeles Times editorial staff does not create or edit the content.
Ideas expressed in the piece
LZ Granderson advocates for eliminating national holidays but argues this should start with historically problematic ones, highlighting Thanksgiving’s origins in colonialism and slavery as a prime candidate for removal.
The author criticizes President Trump’s suggestion to reduce holidays—made on Juneteenth—as racially motivated, given Trump’s past controversies involving race and his endorsement by a KKK-linked newspaper.
Granderson defends Juneteenth as economically transformative, citing research that ending slavery spurred unprecedented U.S. growth, and condemns any effort to revoke this holiday.
He supports holiday reduction for fiscal reasons, citing France and Denmark as models, but emphasizes that the choice must prioritize justice over convenience.
Different views on the topic
French Prime Minister François Bayrou proposed cutting Easter Monday and WWII Victory Day to boost economic output and tax revenue, framing it as essential to reducing France’s debt (114% of GDP) and funding defense needs[1][2][4].
The plan faced immediate backlash: 70% of French citizens opposed it in polls, unions condemned it, and the far-right National Rally—Parliament’s largest party—rejected it[2].
Historical precedent warns against such moves; France’s 2003 attempt to scrap Pentecost Monday caused widespread confusion, protests, and enduring public resentment[3].
Denmark’s elimination of Great Prayer Day in 2023 triggered mass defiance, with schools and businesses closing anyway—illustrating deep cultural attachment to holidays.
Unlike Granderson’s focus on racial justice, macroeconomic arguments dominate overseas: Bayrou asserted cutting “holy cheese” holiday clusters would streamline productivity without targeting specific historical narratives[1][2][4].
