‘Severance’ star Tramell Tillman on his own Mr. Milchick moments
In the Emmy-season finale of The Envelope video podcast, Tramell Tillman opens up about the jobs that made him “miserable” before acting — and how they informed his performance as Mr. Milchick in “Severance.” Then, Katherine LaNasa explains what her Emmy nomination for “The Pitt” means to her as a self-described “character actress.”
Kelvin Washington: Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Envelope. I’m Kelvin Washington, alongside folks you are used to seeing at this point: Yvonne Villarreal, Mark Olsen. And we are excited about this episode because it’s Emmy season. Mark, I even wanna start with you. What sticks out to you? Maybe it’s just someone you think’s gonna win or something you’re expecting, maybe a trend with the theme of the show as well. What jumps out?
Mark Olsen: Well, I’m looking at the category of supporting actress in a drama, where all the ladies from “The White Lotus” were nominated, and people are really thinking that Carrie Coon will probably be winning in that category. Also, she’s just kind of on such a hot streak right now with “The Gilded Age” as well. But I have to say, I am so excited, my indie film queen, Parker Posey — who played, of course, the matriarch of the Ratliff family on the show — I’ve seen her give some award speeches before, and we would be in for a real doozy if they would pick Parker Posey. I don’t know if that’s gonna happen, but I think that category just in general is gonna be sort of a fun category to watch.
Yvonne Villarreal: Do you think she’ll thank Lorazepam? She mentions it so much as her character.
Washington: We didn’t even get an answer. Just a laugh.
Olsen: Well, mine just kicked in.
Washington: OK, copy that. So I go to you now, Yvonne. What about you? So we got a whole “White Lotus” phenomenon, as you mentioned, Mark. If you’re on the show, you’re nominated. What about you, Yvonne?
Villarreal: I’m really curious to see how the drama category shakes out. This idea of “Severance,” that was gone for so long, is really dominating, but then you have a breakout like “The Pitt” that’s really strong, and it’ll be interesting to see how that shakes out. I’ll be happy either way. If they miss the opportunity to stage an emergency with “The Pitt” people there, c’mon.
Washington: That makes sense. And plus, I like how you did that, kind of foreshadowing this episode with the two shows that you picked. Mark, I want to go to you. You had a chance to talk with Tramell Tillman, speaking of “Severance.” By the way, before you go, I brought this up one time. We talked about this. I did something on the morning news that I anchor. I came out with a marching band from the Palisades. We had the fires in Los Angeles in January, and we had a marching band bring us in the show. And everyone was saying that I was his character. That’s all it was. That’s literally all my entire timeline was about. And I think it dropped just a Sunday prior to me posting that.
Villarreal: You’ve got your Halloween costume ready.
Washington: Yes. So tell me more about your chat, Mark.
Olsen: Tramell plays what’s become a real fan-favorite character on the show, Mr. Milchick, who is the middle manager in the office there. And as much as this has been a huge breakout role for Tramell, it’s really fascinating the road that he’s had to get here. He didn’t really start acting professionally until he was into his 30s. He had originally studied medicine, then he had finally gone back to school, studied acting, and then kind of was outside the business for a while, and then really has sort of hit a stride, and it’s just exciting to see that happen for him. And then, of course, he has the marching band sequence this year, which became such a huge, popular thing; sort of a viral moment. And on top of that, he also had just an absolute scene-stealing performance in “Mission: Impossible — The Final Reckoning,” and so this has just been a huge year for him so far.
Washington: We see those moments happen, right? Where someone has that role that finally [breaks through], and then you look at it and you realize, “Oh, I’ve seen him or her in a million other movies.” You just didn’t notice him until they finally had that role. And so it’s awesome to see when that happens for folks. I go to you, Yvonne. Tell us a bit more about Katherine LaNasa. You just mentioned “The Pitt.” Tell us about your conversation.
Villarreal: Well, it fits perfectly, because Katherine LaNasa is having a moment too on this show. You know, she’s been a working actor for a long time, but she’s really had this breakout moment on “The Pitt.” The medical drama really took off when it launched in January, just because of the format. You just want to keep going. It covers a 15-hour shift, and it just felt revelatory. And she plays Dana, the charge nurse at this hospital. And you really get a sense early on that she’s the one that makes this place work. She’s the one that knows everything. And she knows how to deal with all the personalities. And she really has, over this 15-hour shift, an existential moment where she experiences violence on the job. And it really rattles her. And she is grappling with, “This job that I’ve had for so long, is this still where I need to be? Is it time to go?” And that’s how the season sort of ends with her, of her having this reckoning of, “Is this over for me? Or am I going to keep going?” And it was really just great to talk to her about having this moment at this point in her career.
Washington: And that’s what we’re talking about. Folks get their moment. Whenever it comes, obviously, I’m sure very appreciated. All right, let’s get to Tramell Tillman and Mark’s conversation. Here it is.
Tramell Tillman in “Severance.”
(Apple TV+)
Mark Olsen: Before we start talking about “Severance,” I want to go back to talk about — and please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it, you didn’t really start acting professionally until you were in your 30s. You’d been in school and working. And I’m always so curious about when people aren’t a prodigy, aren’t a success right out of the gate. For you, what was that road like? What was it like for you getting to be able to say, I’m going be an actor?
Tramell Tillman: It’s more like a cul-de-sac. I was kind of going in and out, going in circles a bit. It was not a straight journey for me at all. I had made the commitment that I wanted to be an actor when I was 10 and was really shy about pursuing it because I didn’t have a lot of mentors around that were doing the work that I wanted to do at that level. So I leaned on the academic side, more so in the sciences and studying medicine. And I told myself I was going to become an orthopedic surgeon and was going down that route. But performing was always a part of my life. I would perform for my family, especially the adults in the house. When they were bored and didn’t want to watch TV, they put all the cousins, the babies and the grandkids up in front of them. We had to do little talent shows. And my first performance in front of a live audience of strangers, if you will, was at the church when I was 10. But there was something that clicked, and I wanted to follow that spark and it never went away. Even when I was studying medicine or selling knives door-to-door in Maryland or teaching about abstinence in Mississippi or rallying and pushing kids about the importance of education here and there.
Olsen: So you always had the goal of becoming an actor. In your mind, you were on your path.
Tillman: Well, I didn’t commit to the path until I felt like life had just beat me down, and only in the sense that I was miserable doing everything else and had to tap back into myself. And I was fortunate to have a wonderful mentor, Dr. Mark G. Henderson, who basically inspired me to do a lot of soul-searching and figure out what was that thing that lit my fire, and it was performing. And it was he that inspired me to go to grad school to get the tools. He saw that I had the talent, but I needed to learn the craft. And I’m grateful I made that decision.
Olsen: Was there a movie or a performance, a play, some other actor that you saw that felt like a possibility model for you, like, “Oh, I want to do that. I could do that too.”
Tillman: Honestly, there were so many, so many actors. Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Angela Bassett, Laurence Fishburne, Meryl Streep, Gene Hackman. I was watching so many films as a kid growing up, and I loved what they were doing. I loved the stories that they were telling. And so they were all examples of what could be. I just didn’t know how they went about their journey. And then, if you look at all of their stories, it’s very different. So there’s no one way to get to where you wanna be. Specifically in this industry. But you just gotta keep trying.
Olsen: Even after you went to graduate school, I think there were a few years after school before you really sort of got your career going. What were those years like for you?
Tillman: They were tough. After graduate school, I had four jobs. I was living in New York and I was determined not to be a starving artist. So I had two jobs working at a nonprofit. I had a job working in catering. And then, of course, I have my acting gig. And so that kept me incredibly busy. But it’s a grind. The acting itself, the business of it is a grind, and then New York City is a hustle. So you’re always going, you’re always moving and learning, and you’ve got to move quick and learn quicker. But it really prepared me for “Severance,” in a way. I’d had all these corporate jobs, which who’d have thought would come in handy? These were just survival gigs, but it all fueled me to where I am now.
Olsen: With “Severance,” the first season was well received, but this second season has just seemed like a phenomenon. It just seems like the show has really skyrocketed. What do you think it is that audiences are really responding to?
Tillman: Definitely the mystery. We want to know what is going on at Lumon. But it’s also — there’s a human story there. We give so much of ourselves at work. And a lot of times, we are not who we are at work versus home. And so this show really speaks to that. It speaks to the human condition, the investments that we have within ourselves and the relationships. And it begs the question, why are we doing this and who is it for?
Olsen: Do you find that those are the same things that you responded to when you first read the script, when you first were approached about the project?
Tillman: I was very curious about what this show was. So I got the sides, and my audition sides were the red ball scene and the scene with Milchick and — we learned later — Helena in the stairwell where he’s encouraging her that she’s doing the right thing, go back into the wall and finish her work. So I didn’t really have a concept of what this thing was. I just knew that this guy was a motivator. He was a leader. He was a teacher. He was someone that you can trust, but he was also someone that you didn’t want to mess with. So I just really leaned into trying to find who this guy was and make him a whole human. And I really had fun with the process.
Olsen: There are so many wild fan theories around the show. I don’t know how much you even engage with all that or are aware of it, but does that inform your own understanding of the show at all?
Tillman: I had to kind of avoid it. First of all, it’s very addictive. You’re reading the comments, you’re reading the Reddit threads, and the contributions, the thoughts behind it are so intoxicating, and they’re really well thought out. And it makes me think as an actor, “But is that what we were doing? Is that the story we’re telling?” And then I’ll call Dan [Erickson] or Ben [Stiller] and [say], “Wait, but someone said this, and this is kind of a little spot-on.” And they’re like, “No, that’s not what’s happening at all.” But it’s just this whole journey. And I think it’s a testament to how great the show is. It also speaks to the intelligence of our fans and the passion behind the show. It’s enriching, it’s empowering as well.
Olsen: But is it challenging with this show in particular — how do you play to the enigma? How do you grapple with all the unknown factors to this world, to your character? Are you having to answer all those questions for yourself before you perform a scene, or can you somehow embrace the mystery and know that there are going to be unknowns?
Tillman: Well, with this character, he’s really special because this is one of the rare instances where the character knows more than the actor. And so that gets really tricky as well. And so there are things that you’re just not going to know and you have to let go to that, I found. And there are constant conversations that I have, with Dan and Ben and with the fellow directors, of trying to figure out what this world is. And so because the world itself is an enigma, you don’t have to play the enigma. You just lean into the circumstances that have been set up and trust that it will reveal itself in the process.
Olsen: The idea that the character knows more than the actor playing the character, does that make you feel wrong-footed? At any point, do you learn something about the character down the line and maybe wish you’d played an earlier scene a little different?
Tillman: Oh, yeah. All the time, all the time. But you know, that’s where the trust comes in. You’re trusting that you have a team of people that will lead you in the right direction, that there are people that have vision. That you have great writers and cinematographers and directors that really understand the journey. And while I might not get it, I can lean on them to help me get there. And they’re very vocal. If I’m off, they’ll tell me.
Olsen: Especially in this second season, it’s been so exciting in that your character of Milchick is very much a company man, but also there seems to be a growing sense of conflict inside of him. And so for you, how do you interpret that? What’s going on with him?
Tillman: We started in chaos from Season 1, Day 1. And Season 2 really ups the ante because now he’s in a position of leadership and no one is helping him navigate this new space. And he’s being thrust in[to] all these different situations and circumstances and the Innies are not helping him by any means. They’re making his job a lot harder. And he’s learning the lessons of what it is to move up in corporate America, that it’s not so much easier just because you have this leadership title. And I think that’s what the audience is experiencing. We’re starting to see the cracks beneath the veneer.
Olsen: Are you approaching him in a sense as a prison guard who’s suddenly becoming too sympathetic to his charges?
Tillman: I wouldn’t say a prison guard who’s too sympathetic. I’ve approached him as a man who is committed to the job. He’s a person of duty, by any means necessary. And we see the differences in how Cobel leads, which is very much old school, versus Milchick, which is, “Let’s do kindness reforms. Let’s give them what they want. Let’s kind of help them along, and maybe that will bring about positive results.” But we see it doesn’t.
Olsen: I think audiences have been really surprised by how empathetic they are feeling towards Milchick. I don’t think people expected that. And one way to put that as a question is simply, do you see him as one of the villains of the story?
Tillman: My tendency was to think he was a villain in Season 1, but as I stepped further into the script, I think there’s something more interesting about this story. And to categorize him as a villain, I think it’s a bit shortsighted. It’s easy to go that route. And so what I really enjoy is the conversation where people are discussing if he is a villain because I think that there is more to mine. There’s more to understand.
Olsen: How have you been exploring that for yourself? As you get a script for each episode, how are you sort of continuing to evolve your own understanding of who Milchick is?
Tillman: I really just allow the page to inform me, you know, try not to have any preconceived notions of where you think it’s going to go and just lean into the circumstances. And you know, Dan Erickson and his writing team do such a great job in presenting a wonderful road map to get you from point A to point B, and then C and then D. And if you don’t anticipate, it’s really quite a fascinating journey.
Olsen: How have your own experiences with office culture informed your performance as the character and your understanding of this world?
Tillman: One of the jobs I had, I was an assistant to the vice president of accounting and controls for a finance company, a world I knew nothing about. But essentially, my job was to file financial reports, do travel and scheduling and so forth. But on top of that, I was in charge of office culture. So I had to come up with these innovative ideas to keep positive morale in the office. Sound familiar? So that was a wonderful exercise that really helped me fuel building and constructing Milchick. I spent years as a cater waiter. So customer service was really important. I used to sell, I was in retail. So being [able] to anticipate a need, being able to offer a product or an idea, like we see in Season 2, where Milchick visits Mark’s Outie, he gives him all of these incentives, being able to construct that in such a way that is pleasant and not threatening was really important. So this guy, he’s having to go from being an administrator to the Innies to being almost a customer service rep to the Outies. And that was really intriguing to me.
Olsen: This season, we’ve seen Milchick suffer a lot of micro- and some not-so-micro-aggressions, many of them based around race. Was that something that was familiar to you from your own time in office culture?
Tillman: I think it’s just familiar to me, period. Just living and being in various circumstances, living in the South, being in the Midwest at times, just kind of a symptom of existing, unfortunately.
Olsen: I’ve seen you describe yourself as a reformed people pleaser. Would you say that Milchick is on that same trajectory?
Tillman: I was 100% a people pleaser. I don’t know, he’s definitely not reformed. He’s definitely not. When we see him at the end of the second season, we don’t know what to think. We don’t know where he’s gonna go next. And that’s exciting to me.
Olsen: But what made you change that in yourself?
Tillman: Being a reformed people pleaser? It’s exhausting. It’s 100% exhausting. And it’s impossible. Someone’s always gonna be upset about something or find fault in anything. So once I started following my bliss and going after the things that I wanted to do, there was a sense of freedom there. It was a liberation, and at a certain point you just realized that, you know what, I don’t have to prove myself to people. I can just be, I can just exist.
Olsen: I know there’s one line in particular in this past season, “devour feculence,” which turns into a real turning point for the character. He is standing up to one of his superiors, who had reprimanded him for the language that he uses. Can you tell me a little bit about what that moment meant to you and for the character?
Tillman: I felt it was a defining moment. Just like you said. We don’t see him talking back to administration at any point, even in Season 1. He’s always been respectful, always played by the rules. And so again, just like I talked about the road map earlier, what the writers have done is create a series of circumstances where it would make sense for him to respond in such a way that could jeopardize his job. And if you really think about it, this man has gone through a lot in a short period of time. So there really is no way for him to process any of this information. This company has been turned upside down, seemingly overnight, and he’s had to bear it all. And even though he’s keeping things on the track as best as he can, he still doesn’t get the respect that he deserves. So yeah, he would tell him, “devour feculance.” Just like, get off my back, dude. I’m doing what I can.
Olsen: But when you see that moment in the script, in particular that very distinctive two-word phrase — your delivery of it is so fantastic because you don’t oversell the line. Can you tell me how you decide on how to deliver that phrase? Because it could obviously go in many different directions.
Tillman: Sure. So first I had to look up the word. I was like, “What is that? Wait, what?” I didn’t know what this was. And I said, “OK, this is what we’re doing.” He’s telling him what to do. And this felt like such an empowering moment for him because this is the one moment we see him stand up for himself. And I said, “OK, you gotta sell this, but you have to sell it in only the way that Milchick would sell it.” And this man is very measured. He doesn’t need to raise his voice a lot to get a point across. I believe he knows his power. He’s able to manipulate people very easily and very quickly. So for him to deliver that line in that monotone and that simple delivery speaks to his power and the knowledge that he has of himself. And also it makes it so much more effective because if you yell it at somebody, you know, they’ll kind of overlook it. They don’t hear it as well. But to just like whisper it, it lands.
Olsen: And then I, of course, I have to ask you about the drumline sequence this season. It takes the kind of the “Music Dance Experience” from Season 1 to a whole new place. And I’m just so curious about the origins of that performance. When was it first just presented to you, “Oh, and by the way, we want you to lead a a marching band drumline through the office.”
Tillman: I believe we were in the middle of filming Season 2, and I was approached about this marching band idea. And I was reticent about it because I did not want to replicate what we did in the Music Dance Experience, because that’s iconic of itself. But we continued having [a] conversation with the creative team and trying to explore ways of making sense of the moment so it didn’t feel like just a one-off, like, “Oh, this man just has a band” and whatever. So we tried to find purpose behind it. And so knowing that this man was at a breaking point with Lumon and at this mysterious moment of where his next moves were, I felt that it was really important to infuse his own identity in this. Because in the second season, we start to see that race becomes a thing in the world of Lumon. So it’s how can we dovetail the microaggressions that you had mentioned before, his journey, his role in leadership, and also the showmanship this man has. If he’s gonna do anything, it’s gonna be big. It’s gonna be massive. And it was a wonderful marriage.
Olsen: Already, at PaleyFest, you did a live performance with a band and you’re going to be doing another one coming up soon. How are you finding that? Like, how are you preparing for these live performances leading a marching band?
Tillman: It’s a dream. Coming from a historically Black college and university, I would see the marching bands and I was in awe. I was in marching band when I was in high school, I played the alto saxophone. And to be able to serve as bandleader and drum leader, or drum major, for a group of incredible musicians is an absolute dream.
Olsen: But now is there a part of you that’s kind of like, “What exactly did I sign up for here?” Are you concerned you’re going to be asked to lead marching bands for the rest of your career?
Tillman: When I signed up to join the cast of “Severance,” and we had to pause for the pandemic, and I was reading through the rest of the script. It was at that point I realized, “Oh, this is something different. I signed up for something that is insane.” And every addition ever since in Season 2, I said, “Yep, that’s insane. That’s insane, this is insane. But you know what, it makes sense.”
Olsen: Are you enjoying that surprise aspect of it? That every time you get a script, you kind of genuinely have no idea what could be coming next?
Tillman: I am leaning into that now. More and more. Just allowing life to take its course.
Olsen: There was a big time gap just between Season 1 and Season 2. And there’s been a lot of talk that it’s not gonna take as long to make Season 3. How is that for you? Schedule-wise, are you able to take on other projects, do other things? In a way I’m asking if you are able to take advantage of this moment that you’re having, the great attention and success that it seems the show has brought you.
Tillman: Oh, absolutely. I filmed “Mission: Impossible” right after I had wrapped my portion of Season 2. I filmed a project with Mahershala Ali, “Your Mother Your Mother Your Mother.” I just wrapped a project with Lena Dunham and Natalie Portman. So I’ve been staying busy and staying active. And that’s just me, going from a shy kid to being a hustler and grinder and living in New York and just continuing the pace and doing more and more.
Olsen: And tell me about the Lena Dunham project, her new film, “Good Sex.” What was that like?
Tillman: Oh, it was fantastic. It’s a wonderful crew. Cast is beautiful. It’s a really lovely rom-com. And Natalie is a queen. And Lena is such a delight. She has a passion for this. She is so supportive. And I can’t wait to see it.
Olsen: And then you also mentioned Bassam Tariq’s “Your Mother Your Mother Your Mother,” which has you, Mahershala Ali is in the cast, Giancarlo Esposito is in the cast. And I can only hope that the three of you have scenes together. Like, I would love to see the three of you onscreen together.
Tillman: Yeah, I would like that too.
Olsen: And I want to be sure to ask you about the “Mission: Impossible” film, “Mission: Impossible — The Final Reckoning.” I have to tell you, I saw the film at a public screening and simply when you came onscreen, the crowd burst into cheers, like people were very excited. And I think it really has been one of the scene-stealing performances of the year.
Tillman: Oh, wonderful. I have seen this movie about four times, and every time I came onscreen, it was quiet. So it’s nice to know that people were excited to see me in this movie.
Olsen: You have this one line, the word “Mister,” that you say throughout your screen time, and you just deliver it with such like verve and gusto. It’s really exciting. And again, like I don’t even know if that line was specifically in the script that you were referring to him like that —
Tillman: It was.
Olsen: But how do you come to decide just how much sort of spin to put on the ball there?
Tillman: How do I come to decide? I don’t know, you just feel it in the moment. And again, like when you’re in a position of power, I feel that these roles like Captain Bledsoe and Seth Milchick, they know that they’re in a position of power, and when you know it, you don’t have to do too much. It’s just, you command the room, you own it.
Olsen: Because the world of that submarine that you’re a part of, like yourself, Katy O’Brian, some of the other actors there, there’s just like a really specific and exciting energy among the people on that submarine. How did that come to be? Like, were you having conversations among the cast or with the director, Christopher McQuarrie, as far as what the world of that submarine was gonna seem like?
Tillman: The conversations were very much present, but a lot of it was really in the moment. We just dove in, and what all of those actors did beautifully was create these characters that were real. They weren’t playing at being in a submarine or playing being in military forces. They were just themselves and just allowed things to blossom as it is.
Olsen: And was it exciting for you to be a part of a movie at that that scale?
Tillman: Absolutely. I remember. Watching “Mission: Impossible” as a kid. You know, I never thought I’d be in it. And then working alongside Tom Cruise, I mean, that’s a big deal. That’s kind of huge.
Olsen: But in particular, again, you more than almost any other character in this movie in particular, you’re kind of putting him in his place, and there’s something that’s really — I think that’s part of the reason why audiences got such a kick out of your character, is you’re sort of dressing him down in a way that people aren’t used to seeing.
Tillman: Yeah, I don’t know how that happened. No, it was a lot of fun. It was so much fun. And Tom and Chris were so game and really allowed me the space to fly and have fun with it. It was a delight.
Olsen: And now with moving forward to Season 3 of “Severance,” have you seen any scripts yet? Like, do you know anything that’s gonna be happening?
Tillman: I haven’t seen anything, I don’t know anything. I know nothing.
Olsen: One of the ways you’ve described Milchick is as an iceberg, meaning that there’s a lot that we haven’t seen yet. Are there specific things about him that you would like to see revealed?
Tillman: I am interested in knowing how the man grew up, his background. I’m always interested in history, how people — their origin story, right? And I think he has a very compelling story. As an actor, I built my own idea of what the origin story is because that, for me, helps fuel the character or fuel my performance into the character. But we’ll see.
Olsen: For you as a performer, have you already conceived of what that backstory is? Do you have an idea of what you think his previous life was like?
Tillman: Yeah, I do.
Olsen: Anything you care to share?
Olsen: It’s probably invalid because it’s all wrong. That’s another thing I’ve learned about working on this show. Everything you think is going to happen, nope.
Olsen: And how do you grapple with that? Especially for you as a performer, you have ideas about the character, where he’s from, maybe where he is heading, and then the script takes him in a totally different direction. What do you do with that?
Tillman: There was a point it would make me break out in hives because it felt like I had no control over it. But then you realize how that bleeds into the state of the character. This man, Milchick, who thinks he has control every day, is shown that he has very little control. So being in that environment, while it’s not fun, to a certain extent, for someone who likes to have all of the answers, it really does fuel the performance in a whole other way.
Olsen: And now for you, with the attention, the acclaim that the role has brought you, your Emmy nomination, is this the acting life that you envisioned for yourself? Like, those times when you wanted to be an actor and you were trying to get your career going, is this what you were dreaming of for yourself?
Tillman: Did I dream that I would be on a show with Adam Scott, Patricia Arquette, John Turturro? It wasn’t that specific, no. I did have dreams of performing and being proud of the work that I did. I did dream of being in movies and television. The vision was not clear, but the desire was there.
Olsen: And do you feel like, as you’ve been moving forward and gaining some success, has the dream changed at all? Like, what what are your goals now?
Tillman: What are my goals now? I definitely want to continue telling stories and narratives that I believe in. Stories we haven’t heard before or perspectives that we’re not familiar with. I want to keep working with quality actors and expanding in a whole different way. And it’s not just in front of the camera. I’m also interested in producing and directing as well.
Olsen: Do you have any specific projects you want to make?
Tillman: I’m really interested in African folktales. I really want to tell, retell, those stories. And I think there’s an avenue for it. So I’m trying to figure that out.
Katherine LaNasa in “The Pitt.”
(Warrick Page / HBO Max)
Villarreal: Katherine, thanks so much for being here. I don’t want to alarm you but before this interview is over, we’re going to have a patient roll through and we’re not gonna tell you what’s wrong. You’re going to have to figure it out.
LaNasa: That patient better pray! They better have a god they pray to because I don’t know anything about medicine — literally, even the fake stuff grosses me out so much.
Villarreal: Really, you don’t have the stomach for it?
LaNasa: Yeah, you’ll see. There’s some stuff in [Season 2]. I actually told the producer, “I think I need some jewelry for that.” I need a gift for dealing with it. It’s so disgusting. It’s so disgusting that I had to process that it was going to happen, and when [it] happened, I had kind of detach from my body and get through it.
Villarreal: OK, so Hour 4 in Season 2, we’re going to know what you’re talking about?
LaNasa: Oh no, I think it’s in [Episode 2].
Villarreal: What part of the body are you dealing with? Can you share that?
LaNasa: No. It’s gross, though. It is gross! It was a lot in [Episode 2]. It was a lot had to deal with in [Episode 2]. I was like, “Wow, OK, guys.”
Villarreal: Oh, my gosh, I can’t wait. Well, congratulations — Emmy nominee! You guys were in production on Season 2 when the news hit. Put me in that moment.
LaNasa: Well, my husband [actor Grant Show] and daughter came. They were in my dressing room, and I knew it was [time for the nominations announcement]. At that moment, Noah [Wyle, star and executive producer] ran up and he says, “I need a bathroom break.” So they gave us a break and I ran up to my room and they announced everybody — and somebody that they announced in some category that wasn’t mine, it was like a [last name that began with an S] or something, and my husband’s like, “Oh, no, it’s in alphabetical order. Oh, no!” He got so upset. I go, “Honey, it’s not my category.” But then they didn’t announce it. They didn’t announce it [in the live segment], and [Grant] couldn’t get [the online list] up in time. I said, “I have to go back to work.” I was waiting outside the trauma room [set], and [Myriam Arougheti, the show’s head of makeup] came and she’s like [makes excited facial expression], and I looked at her, and we went in a little hallway, and I posted those pictures of us. And she got nominated too. Then I went out and my husband was there and then [R.] Scott Gemmill [the show’s creator] came up and my daughter and the head writers. It was just a really neat moment. Then when we went in, they announced, and Noah came walking in. I hadn’t seen him. And that was just his response — that hug. It was surreal.
Villarreal: We’re very thankful you put that on Instagram so we could live in that moment. What do you shoot after something like that?
LaNasa: I don’t even know. I think we had a moment. We kind of hung around for a while. They had to take Noah to do press, so we had some time to kind of decompress for the excitement and stuff. We actually shoot short, so we had time; we had space [for a break].
Villarreal: Have you fully processed it? Is there processing of something like that?
LaNasa: I’m going to start crying. I’m trying to just live in the power of it; live in the blessing of it, because I didn’t know this was going to happen, and it doesn’t matter how good of an actress I might have been, if you don’t get the opportunity, if [executive producer] John Wells didn’t give me that shot, it wouldn’t have happened and, so, I’m so blessed by it. A friend is having a dinner for me, and it really was hard for me to say, “Will you come to this dinner for me?” It doesn’t matter that these wonderful people that I’ve worked with have written me [their congratulations] and they’re so excited, but it’s really hard to say, “Will you come celebrate me?” It’s hard to believe that it’s me. I’ve loved my career. I’ve always, at heart, been a character actress, and I’ve always been a supporting actress, and I think I know how to push on the story and push on the lead actor and make them look great, and I think I shine in that too, but it’s just — I’m not used to being in the spotlight.
Villarreal: You’ve been part of medical dramas before — “The Night Shift,” you’re on “ER” as the mother of a patient who has a little dalliance with with one of the doctors, and then you were on “Grey’s Anatomy.” What do you remember about those moments, just being like a small part of the thing and now to be at the center?
LaNasa: There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t remember all the years of struggle and all the auditions and the hallowed corridors of Warner Bros., where we [shoot] now, they’ve always just held a magic for me. I just was thinking this morning: “Here I am; I’m a series regular in in a hit show at Warner Bros.” It doesn’t pass me by. Doesn’t matter how many shows I do, it’s always so hard to get that next job. To be on one that’s a hit, that really sings, that you love — I’m so lucky.
I have a funny story about “ER.” So, my dad’s a surgeon. He hates every medical drama that’s ever been made, except “The Pitt.” And I was telling this to John Wells. We were at a cast lunch, and he says, “Yeah, we don’t have people making out in broom closets.” And I said, “[My ‘ER’ character] made out in the broom closet with Goran [Višnjić, who played Dr. Luka Kovač].” And he goes, “Well, it was like the seventh season or something. We jumped the shark already.” It was a very funny moment. What I remember about “Grey’s” — I was that girl that people would say, “Can you play like a witch doctor on Monday?” or “Can you have this weird disease?” I had Munchausen [syndrome] — not Munchausen [syndrome] by proxy — that was offered to me on a Friday to do on Monday. I was always that girl: “LaNasa will do it. She’ll try anything!” Like [Little] Mikey with the [Life] cereal. I was a vegetarian for about 35 years, and during that period I find myself on that show and, without any warning, they put a huge raw piece of steak on top of me that I guess is what they used to cauterize and look real in the TV operations. We don’t use steak on “The Pitt.” With “The Night Shift,” I was actually pregnant.
Villarreal: What do you remember about the audition for “The Pitt”? Noah wrote a note to people auditioning, right?
LaNasa: He wrote a note, and he talked about top-to-toe immersion. And I had this feeling — in the first episode, they write about how he [Dr. Robby] is outside, and when he comes through into the ER, that it’s just this whole vibe all of a sudden. Ever since I did “Judging Amy” — it sounds like a very weird thing — but I was left alone [as] a [district attorney] on “Judging Amy” for hours on end, and I figured out during that show how to create my own life and to have an inner life and have my business going all the time. And I thought, “I’ll use all this time just to [think about]: ‘What would I do now? And then what would I do? What does a lawyer do?’” Figuring all that out. So, it’s become a part of my craft that I find very grounding. I always like to be fully alive in my body, in the imaginary life of the character at all times. So when he [Noah] wrote that, I was like, “That’s what I’m into.” I got it. He also said, “Leave your ego and bring your creativity.” And, for some reason, that just spoke to me — that I could be as offbeat as I am; that I didn’t have to be, “Oh, now you’re the strict boss” or “Now you’re this” or “Now you’re the pretty lady” or something that was all constricted. I had this little feeling in the back of my head, even though I hadn’t gotten a good job in a couple of years, I thought, “I think if I can get in front of them, I think they would want me. I think they’d be happy with me. I think I’m the kind of actor they want in that job.” I didn’t really seem like the prototype for it, but then, lo and behold, the tape made it up there. I had a Zoom [meeting] with John Wells. I was out in L.A. and not prepared for an audition. [I] didn’t have any Dana clothes; had to rush to Target and get a sweatsuit. And the Zoom camera, when they came on, it was all upside down. It was just all kind of wonky, but it worked. Then they sent me another scene — the scene when I tell them I’m going to quit, which was a different scene than ended up in the show, but it was a dramatic scene, and I sent that to them and then I found out [I got it].
Villarreal: Did you have the accent all along?
LaNasa: I had done something vaguely East Coast for my first tape, and they told me to take it down a little bit for the second audition, so I took it down a little bit and I asked him, “Was it OK?” He’s like, “Don’t worry about it now.” I was like, “OK.” So I just let it go. But I knew that if I didn’t learn a Pittsburgh accent I would sound vaguely East Coast or like I was from New Jersey in the show. And being from Louisiana and being a Southerner, and having people get that wrong so much, I didn’t want to offend the people of Pittsburgh, and I thought I would try it, and it went actually quite terribly. It was really bad, and I cried a lot and I told my acting coach, “Why am I doing this? Why can’t I just be like a normal actor and not have to always be so extra?” She said, “Is there any way in hell you would play this character onstage and not do this accent?” And I said, “No.” She said, “Keep going.” And then I was watching “Mare of Easttown” so much that it was on in my bathtub and then it rolled out, and the [behind-the-scenes footage] came on and they started talking about the accent and the dialect coach came on. And I contacted her on IMDB Pro; I figured out how to find her, and she hooked me up with Susanne Sulby, who put my accent into shape in time to do the show.
Villarreal: Not even three minutes into Hour 1, we really get a sense of Dana and how crucial she is to this ecosystem. And it’s not only how crucial she is to the place of where she works but how crucial [she] is to us as viewers. It’s through her that we learn that Collins is pregnant. It’s through her that we realize why Dr. Robby is going to have a rough day. What did that unlock for you about who she is and how she moves through this space and interacts with her co-workers?
LaNasa: I think I was just at a place in my life where I’ve been through a lot, so I think I had a great understanding of a human condition, just as a person, and I think that I’m the kind of person, for whatever reason, strangers tell me a lot of stuff, so I have some of that. I think John Wells is good at casting and Cathy Sandrich [“The Pitt’s casting director] is good casting people a little bit close to who they are. I also think that I’m a very take-charge person — some people that are married to me might think I’m bossy — but I think I had a lot of the qualities of Dana. I think playing the role and dealing with people that are in such traumatic situations and having to focus on that in my imagination, like believe that this is what’s going on with them, it really did soften me up as a person. It’s a lesson every day in, you don’t know what people are going through. And how much a soft hand matters; how much empathy and compassion matters.
Villarreal: Dig into that a little bit more. You wrote a really lovely and touching essay for Women’s Health magazine about how this role was a love letter to the nurses who cared for you during your breast cancer treatment. Talk to me a little about how that formed or shaped what you brought to Dana and what do you remember about that time, in terms of the little details that really do, like, make a day or break a day for a patient?
LaNasa: I was pretty stoic during the process, but I have to say that at Piedmont [Hospital] in Atlanta, the nursing staff was incredibly kind. It was not like I’d experienced maybe in other places where I’d had babies. I was like, “I don’t know if everyone’s just nice to you because you have cancer; I don’t know what’s going on, but these people are really nice.” And it really mattered. The warm blankets really mattered a lot. It’s just so thoughtful. When you have to constantly be going in an MRI or these different machines, the radiation machines — that’s a head trip, to go get radiated every day. When someone is caring and offers you a warm blanket or offers you something like that, it really matters.
After my cancer treatment, I went through a rough period of a few months where we weren’t sure if there was some other things wrong with me, and I had to keep going back to the ER, and that was the part that kind of broke me because I had been very healthy and then, now, I never stopped going to the hospital. “Do I have this? Do I have that?” There was a lot of scans and a lot of stuff, and I broke down in the ER and the triage nurse just took me aside, and she basically wrapped me in her arms and was like, “The first six months after cancer are really bumpy. It’s not going to stay like this. Do you need an Ativan?” [Laughs.] And I was like, “No.” My husband’s like, “Are you sure?” But just the way that she was — and she said that, I think it was her sister-in-law, was just going through the same thing. Just taking that time [with me], it was so human. There’s just something about nurses; good nurses are so capable and yet they’re so human. They’re not coming down from the ivory tower like the doctors. They’re right there with you. They are in it with you. It really mattered, and so that’s what I wanted to show. But I think that tired, old working women everywhere relate to Dana. You don’t have to be a nurse. It’s like, “Oh, that’s me. I know her. That’s me or that’s my mom or that’s my aunt.” Everybody tells me: “My mom, my aunt — you’re their favorite character.” It’s always some tired, old lady and I get it. I see you, tired, old, working women.
Villarreal: She [Dana] covers the feet.
LaNasa: Yes, that was so sweet. They wrote that after I told them about the blankets. I’ll do anything for a warm blanket. If you ever have bad news, just bring me a warm blanket.
Villarreal: Dana is also loosely based on Kathy Garvin, a nurse at L.A. General [Medical Center]. What do you remember about shadowing her? What impressed you about what this job entails? What did it illuminate for you?
LaNasa: I think the two most impressive things were one, that she told me that she wouldn’t do this job if it wasn’t at a public hospital. She wanted to work for people who needed her — they kind of put that into the story — and that was really impressive. Also they had a [patient] there that was one of their regulars like we have our regulars and she knew him, and I couldn’t see him but I could see his feet and there were some guards there — because he was having a psychotic episode of some sort and they have to just be on guard — but no one was touching him or anything. And she was like, “He’s probably going to die soon. He’s lost this many pounds. He really comes [in] for attention.” And [listed] all the things that she knew about him. It was just so matter-of-fact, but there was a lot of compassion in it as well.
The other thing was about the sandwiches. They cut my line with Earl — I had a whole bit with Earl in Episode 1 about sandwiches and they ended up cutting it. Earl of Sandwich — inside joke. I wanted to know what’s the deal with the sandwiches, and she said, “Technically we’re supposed to write down if we give patients food, but if they’re hungry, I just give them a sandwich.” And I wanted see where the sandwiches were and everything. I also asked her: “If people are jerks — if they are Doug Driscolls [“The Pitt’s” agitated patient fed up with his wait time] — do you give them less preferable treatment?” And she said, “No, because it’s so serious whatever people are going through, if they’re here. But I might not give them a sandwich.” So, I understood the power.
Villarreal: Well, let’s talk about Doug Driscoll. Episode 9 is a big turning point for Dana. She’s attacked by Doug at the end and it’s a shocking moment that’s been building. And this episode was written by Noah, right?
LaNasa: Yes.
Villarreal: What do you remember about shooting that moment?
LaNasa: That was such a fun episode for me. That was the first episode where I really got to do a lot [to] showcase Dana, and I think he [Wyle] wanted just to showcase what a nurse in the ER might do and what it might look like to somebody that doesn’t know what she’s doing. You see both [sides] — his [Driscoll’s] frustration building and her exhaustion building — in a way that she needs a smoke break. He punches her — I think that I read it and I was detached from it. I thought, “Oh, and there’s a stunt. I do all of this fun stuff and I go out for a cigarette and stunt.” And I didn’t think about how I would have to process it until we did it and that was like, “Oh, this is a thing. I’m getting hit right now,” which I think was good. I trust my own instrument. But the journey after that was just so beautiful; to get that opportunity to play that and to think about her in a deeper way. It’s a person whose mother died when she was in high school — that’s what they told me — and then she’s worked there since she was in high school, and so you have to think: If you’re working with trauma every day, it’s convenient to not feel your feelings. I think that punch just brought a lot crashing down for Dana, and I think she’s going through an existential crisis in like [Episodes] 11 and 12 and there’s trauma [patients], so she’s taken out of her own feelings and sets it aside to keep working and keep saving lives. It was beautiful to get to consider all of that.
Villarreal: What did that do for you — did it make you think about [what you observed growing up] with your dad and what he brought home as a surgeon? When you reach a certain age and you look back at your parents, things sort of click into place or you understand things differently when you consider what they’re carrying into their role as parent.
LaNasa: My dad was a flight surgeon in Vietnam. I asked him once: What was the worst thing you ever saw? He’s there when he’s like 24 years old. He said that he had to tag and bag a gymnasium full of dead boys his own age. So, that’s a lot. I think he rubs really high, and I’m not sure if that’s not from the war.
Villarreal: In the final episode, it’s sort of unclear if Dana’s saying goodbye. It feels like a goodbye, but it also doesn’t feel like a goodbye. We know you’re in Season 2, but with the format of the show [covering one shift], I imagine you end with uncertainty — am I coming back? Am I not? And she hasn’t wanted to go home because, if she goes home, she has to confront everything. How were you thinking her journey, and how soon did sort of John and Scott fill in things for you about where she’s headed?
LaNasa: I really relax into the writing a lot in and just trust it. Scott Gemmill is really such a great architect. I thought it was so beautiful. Everyone’s stories paid off and everything. They told me when we got picked up that I was part of [the new season], so I knew pretty soon, but I think I’m still — even though we’re in shooting right now — just now coming into focus of where she is.
Villarreal: What can you tease about where she’s at?
LaNasa: I think that she’s changed. It’s funny because it’s not a broad stroke; they write in such subtleties. I think there’s definitely less porousness in Dana and less willingness to give her whole self over to situations the way that she did — to always put herself last. I think she’s trying to find some healthy balance. I filled in for myself that she wasn’t doing well, at all, and that one of her daughters confronted her and said, “This is not working — this white-knuckling of this situation; I think you need to get help.” And that I have gone and gotten some grief counseling for myself, going all the way back to dealing with my mother, [to] help me deal with this situation that happened. I think I view her as someone that’s now doing more self-care and taking care of herself like that. She’s got her meeting, she’s got her stuff, maybe she even has her impact classes — like, her self-defense classes. She’s got some stuff to fortify herself so that she could come back. A lot of people that go through [an act of violence like that] need to counterbalance that in a way that they feel like they can protect themselves should that incident come into their life again so that they’d feel safe enough to go back into the world. So I imagined something like that for her.
Villarreal: What do you think her husband thought when he saw the black eye?
LaNasa: I think he was probably pretty ticked. As they wrote it, I probably stayed out for a while. So I think he got what he wanted.
Villarreal: I know there’s the boot camp that happens. What can you share with me about the boot camp? Who’s the star student of the boot camp?
LaNasa: I think Taylor Dearden [who plays Dr. Melissa “Mel” King] would be the star student of the boot camp. I bet you she’s the star student wherever she goes.
Villarreal: And where do you fall?
LaNasa: I’m still the class clown, as I’ve been my whole life. I remember one time they had this video — a woman had an earring in her throat because she had scooped up a handful of pills and scooped up the earrings with a handful pills. I’m like, “I’m sorry, Mary, do you just have a pile of pills all over the table and are just like, ‘Oh, let me grab some of these!’” What happens when you accidentally get an earring in your handful of pills?
Villarreal: Wait, but was this an actual person?
LaNasa: An actual person in a video, and we had to watch [a doctor] going in with an instrument and get it out of the throat. There’s a lot videos.
Villarreal: How do you do in emergency situations? Are you calm?
LaNasa: Definitely calm. I get stuff done. I can remember when my son — I’d heard him fall and my ex-husband went up the stairs. It was such a crash, and I was freaked out when it was my own kid. I wasn’t sure if he had cut up his whole face or whatever. He did have an arm where he broke both bones and the arm was like a twisted snake, and that was kind hard.
I hate dead animals, dead birds. They’re very upsetting to me. But I’m super face-forward into death. I’ve been with a few people when they died, and I can handle that. I can handle a very scary-looking dying person and what they’re going through. People hallucinate a lot when they’re super sick and they look like a skeleton. And for some reason, I’m like, “Y’all can go home, I got it.” I don’t know what it is about it. I’m really happy that I’m able to do it. I don’t feel afraid of it, let’s put it that way. And I know that it’s scary for most people. I feel like I can just show up and be present with people when they’re dying and be in it with them for some reason. I didn’t know I could do it until my ex-husband [actor Dennis Hopper] was dying. And then I was like, “OK, I can do this.” And I could do it when my grandmother was dying. It’s not earned. I feel like it just came down from something. In other words, I don’t think I’m a virtuous person because of it. I just think it’s some part of my psychology, I can be present in that.
Villarreal: Before we wrap, Dr. Robby listens to [Baby” by Robert Bradley’s Blackwater Surprise], as he starts and ends his day of work. Tell me what you think that song is for Dana.
LaNasa: Rema, “Calm Down.” I love that song. It’s also a little bit sad. Something about it has a lot of longing in it. I listened to that song when I was going through some of that stuff with Dana.
Villarreal: As we leave you, you’re taking a break from production, but what gory thing is coming up?
LaNasa: I’m going to have some stuff that I just talked about coming up. I’m going to have to deal with some death.
Villarreal: Well, I’m sorry in advance.
LaNasa: They picked the right actor.
Villarreal: Is there anyone you’re excited to see on Emmys night?
LaNasa: Oh, my gosh, I am just a fan of so many people. I’m a big fan of Jessica Williams [“Shrinking”]. I’m a big fan of Julianne Nicholson [“Paradise”]. I’m a huge fan of Jean Smart [“Hacks”]. Sharon Horgan [“Bad Sisters”]. It’s going to be a great night. I’m a fan of all of our competitors. Sterling K. Brown. It’s an honor to be nominated because there’s some really great work out there. And I kind of hate that both of my comedies are up against each other. Because I love “Shrinking” and I love Paul [W.] Downs [of “Hacks”]. That’s a deep bench over there. I feel like “Shrinking” and “Hacks” should not be on at the same time. I don’t like them competing. I love those shows.
