oppenheimer

This article contains spoilers from the Season 3 finale of “Tell Me Lies.”

“Tell Me Lies” ended with the hard truth.

Based on the book by Carola Lovering, the Hulu series centers on the toxic and manipulative on-again, off-again relationship between college students Lucy Albright and Stephen DeMarco — portrayed by real-life couple Grace Van Patten and Jackson White — whose distressing bond causes a ripple effect of chaos and turmoil for their friend group that stretches across eight years.

It all culminated in Tuesday’s Season 3 finale, which brought explosive revelations, the return of old habits and final fractures to the friend group. But what about its central pair?

Across the show’s two timelines, Stephen’s admission to Yale Law School was revoked and his engagement blew up — but is that enough retribution for the most-hated fictional millennial man with a buzz cut after all the emotional and mental abuse he inflicted? Meanwhile, Lucy’s life is upended when she is expelled from school; but years later, and not without making another questionable choice, she is finally free from his torment. For good. Hours before the finale dropped, creator Meaghan Oppenheimer announced the series would not return for another season.

Over two separate video interviews from New York — Oppenheimer from her home; Van Patten and White, later in the day, from a hotel room — The Times caught up with the trio to discuss bringing the dark and twisted saga to an end, why Stephen wasn’t dealt more severe punishment and the love story between Bree and Wrigley. The conversations have been combined and edited for clarity and length.

Lucy (Grace Van Patten) and Stephen (Jackson White) in the series finale of “Tell Me Lies.”

(Ian Watson / Disney)

Before we dive into the finale, the other big news is the announcement that the show will not return for another season. Would you have wanted more or are three seasons enough?

Oppenheimer: This was definitely a very thoughtful, mutual decision that I came to with Hulu and 20th [Television,” which produces the show]. I went into this season wanting to write it with a sense of finality. I always felt like three seasons was sort of a perfect number for a smaller show like this. I always envisioned Lucy and Stephen’s worst, biggest breakup in college, and her public downfall culminating with the wedding weekend. But we went into this season not knowing for sure if there would be another one — and after seeing the amazing fan response and the numbers being so great, we definitely discussed “is there an organic way to keep it going?” I was definitely trying to make a very specific point with the way that Lucy and Stephen ended, which is that it was inevitable that he was going to hurt her, and that if she chooses him over her friends, she’s going to lose them. To keep going after that and force them back in each other’s lives, it would have felt like it was undermining the stakes of everything we set up.

Does it feel like the right time to be done with these characters?

Van Patten: It does. Of course, it’s bittersweet. But in terms of the story, it feels really right that it’s ending here, and we’ve had a beginning, a middle and an end.

White: I like the way that goes out.

Will you be glad to not be the most hated fictional man on TV?

White: I’m stoked. I’m stoked. I really am. I’m really excited to not trigger people like that. It’s a strange burden, like an odd social burden.

Van Patten: Because it’s out of love, but what they’re saying is so negative.

White: Yeah, it’s a compliment, but it’s mean. It’s kind of like how Stephen talks to the other characters.

Grace Van Patten as Lucy Albright in the final moments of the “Tell Me Lies” series finale. (Ian Watson/Disney) (Ian Watson/Disney)

Finales are challenging because they come with a lot of expectations from fans. Since you weren’t sure if the series might return, how did that shape how you wrapped this third season?

Oppenheimer: I had to go into it not worrying too much about what would happen in the future. When we found the [Season 3] ending in the writers room, we all were like, “Oh s—, that’s the ending to the story, not the ending of the season.”

Sometimes, when I see certain [fan] theories, I’m like, “What show are you watching?” I think people that were expecting a resolution to the Macy story, for instance, for him [Stephen] to get arrested — that’s so surprising to me … because I’m like, “I don’t feel like you’re watching the same show that I’m watching.” It’s one of the few things that we kept from the book. He doesn’t get justice for that. In reality, people get away with really bad things and that’s one of the scary truths of the show.

How did you and the writers decide on the moment that ends the series? Lucy choosing to ride off with Stephen after the wedding goes off the rails, only for him to leave her stranded at a gas station.

Oppenheimer: The show was going to end in one of three ways: Does she reject him? Does he reject her? Or do they end up together? I felt for a very long time that they should not end up together because this is a story about abuse. I don’t think this is a love story. It felt like staying true to what the show meant not having this overly positive, optimistic ending where she wins.

At the same time, the one thing we’ve learned about Stephen is that he will never let you go unless he’s the one making that decision. For Lucy to actually be free of him, he needed to be the one to walk away. It actually is the only way for her to really wake up and see it.

I will get images for scenes before I know what the actual scene is, and it’ll be almost more of like a symbolic image, or it’ll be a fable that I’ve heard before. But I said to the writers room, “I just want it to be her finally having the decision — Bree or him, friends or him — and her choosing him and then, it’s not this, but it’s as if he just drives away and leaves her by the side of the road.” And they were all like, “He could literally just drive away and leave her by the side of the road.” The idea of her being on this island alone, and the inevitability of it. And that’s why we have the whole —

Grace Van Patten on ending the series: “Of course, it’s bittersweet. But in terms of the story, it feels really right that it’s ending here, and we’ve had a beginning, a middle and an end.”

(Dutch Doscher / For The Times)

Allusion in the previous episode to the scorpion and frog fable?

Oppenheimer: Yes. The answer is, of course, he was going to hurt you because he’s Stephen. It’s in his nature. Also he’s not driving away, thrilled and happy. When he says, I’ve just blown up my entire life. If I hurt you, I’m hurting myself. It’s true. He would have more fun if he just learned to be nice and be with Lucy. But he can’t help it. His nature is to win and to wound and to get the last laugh.

White: That character is all about himself, and this is one final way to leave on the last laugh.

Van Patten: I find the ending to actually be a little bit helpful. I think there’s a lot of freedom and relief in that last moment when she realizes he left her.

There’s that almost wistful look that she has at the gas station, getting the coffees. Then there’s the one when she realizes she’s been stranded and all she can do is laugh. It’s quite the trajectory.

Van Patten: Every time Lucy has gone back to Stephen, she’s completely in denial. There’s a sense of hope, maybe it’s going to be different this time — also, he had just blown up every relationship she had at the wedding. We’re completely on an island together. There’s this hope of like, maybe we can be OK now, there are no more secrets left. The friend group isn’t together. There’s nothing being held over one another’s head. Then she’s hit with, “Oh, my God he did it again. Shame on me.” She totally could have cried, but she just decided to laugh instead because it is predictable. She actually saw it for the first time as definitive.

Jackson White on playing the hated character Stephen: “It’s a strange burden, like an odd social burden.”

(Dutch Doscher / For The Times)

How did you and the writers grapple with why Evan and Bree would invite Stephen to the wedding after everything that happened in college?

Oppenheimer: It’s one of the things that struck me in the book and scares me about a lot of young men in general (especially operating within groups) — the way guys tend to forgive other guys for what they do to girls. When Evan and Stephen leave things in senior year, they’re actually at a relatively good place with each other. Even though Evan knows that Bree knows the truth (about Lucy‘s one-night stand), he knows that Stephen still recognizes the worst parts of him, so he’s made a decision to keep him close in order to keep himself safe. Bree has a line where she says, “I begged Evan not to invite him.” So it’s not up to Bree, and like a lot of people do, she’s decided to accept that her fiancé has this friend she hates.

On social media, there are fans who say they won’t be satisfied if this show doesn’t end with Stephen dying. And there was the theory that characters were plotting their revenge on him to take place at the wedding. What do you make of that? Why not go that route?

Oppenheimer: When you’re writing anything based on fan expectations or giving them the happy ending all tied in a bow, I think you’re doing a disservice to the story. Different writers would do different things. I have to stay true to my taste. Hoping for all that, I get it. But I think that the way that we do it is with a laugh.

But why not go that route? It just didn’t feel realistic. Maybe I’m just very jaded, but as I look around the world — everyone after #MeToo was like, “Oh, did we cancel all the men?” It’s like, “No, we didn’t.” That is the reality of the world that we live in, especially now, with everything coming out about the Epstein files — it’s appalling. To me, it feels almost belittling to people who’ve been abused and been in these kind of things to say, “Oh, it all works out in the end.” But also, I will say, Stephen is not going to be happy. He’s miserable.

White: He was hardwired to hate. I think the character was designed to start hating. He’s started as a confusing character, and by the end, I think it’s pretty clear that he is one-sided and complicated, sure, but also unquestionably immoral. And there’s a lot of satisfaction in wanting to take that person out, especially if you’re projecting your own whatever onto this character. I totally understand the impulse to want to ice him. But that’s not the way the world works, and I think that’s why the ending is well done because [that’s] not always the case. You don’t get that satisfaction. You actually have to live with it for a long time. And I think the message is that it’ll keep happening over and over and over unless you fix it yourself. No one’s gonna save you. You have to heal yourself.

What about the outcome of the college timeline — in the end, Yale revokes its law school admission offer to Stephen after receiving a tip about behavior that goes against its code of conduct, namely the distribution of pornographic material, which we come to learn was Wrigley’s doing. And that’s one big loss for Stephen. What intrigued you about that? And was it always going to be Wrigley who did that?

Oppenheimer: We didn’t think, initially, that it was going to get reported. That was something that someone — I can’t remember who it was — said, “It really doesn’t feel fair for Diana not to get to go to Yale after everything she’s done to get past every obstacle to better her life.” Then when we were deciding who reports him, it was just very obvious that it needed to be Wrigley because it’s the last person Stephen expects. I thought it was really important to have a guy … it really devastates me the way that men choose other men over their female friends and turn a blind eye. I just wanted one boy to stand up against the other mean boys.

White: I think [having Yale revoke his admission] really messed him [Stephen] up. He is a survivor, though, he’s a shark. A lot of these people don’t face consequences. I think eventually they do. Everything does come around. I think the people who wish ill upon other people will get what’s coming to them. We’re just not going to see when. But in his lifetime, he will get his ass kicked in that way.

Grace Van Patten, left, on the set of “Tell Me Lies” with showrunner Meaghan Oppenheimer.

(Ian Watson / Disney)

To move on to Lucy, we learn what happened in the college timeline that led to her being largely estranged from the friend group. Grace, what stands out to you about playing her in that state of numbness to her life crashing down?

Van Patten: It’s been set up the past two seasons, in the present day, that the worst thing happened to Lucy in college, and we haven’t known what that thing was until this last episode. It’s the last piece of the puzzle for the audience to see what really ruined Lucy’s life. It was so tragic and heartbreaking because she is not computing anything. She’s completely reverting back to being a little girl and doesn’t know how to deal with getting in trouble, and she’s not taking in what’s what’s going on; she’s completely disassociating. I think if she allows herself to feel, then she would not be able to pick herself up off the floor. It’s self-protection and complete denial.

“It’s the last piece of the puzzle for the audience to see what really ruined Lucy’s life,” says Grace Van Patten of “Tell Me Lies.”

(Dutch Doscher / For The Times)

At what point did you both learn that it was Bree who released the tape with Lucy confessing to lying about being sexually assaulted by Chris — a lie she told to protect Pippa, his actual victim?

Van Patten: I forget if it was through reading or Meaghan just telling us before we got the scripts. I was definitely surprised by that because the first few episodes, they’re really emphasizing the closeness between Lucy and Bree and how they’ve developed this really tight-knit relationship, which made sense; they were bumping it up to make that feel like real betrayal. But I just see it as Bree getting even.

White: I really did like that. I liked playing that I genuinely didn’t do it.

Tell me more.

Van Patten: His first time!

White: Just because every single person will obviously think he did. We’ve just established him for three years as the guy who would do that. And to actually have it not be him is confusing, and it was very fun to play. I did not do this horrible thing — I’ve done a lot of other horrible things, but I didn’t do this.

I love the way you deliver the line, when it clicks for you that it was Bree — “Oh, my God, you released the tape, didn’t you?”

White: If the character’s putting pieces together, I like to try and put pieces together. It was just easy to act in that moment. That entire wedding sequence was very easy for everybody because it was well-crafted. We were all bringing it. We knew it was one of the big, important moments.

The cake got demolished.

White: Branden Cook [Evan] is amazing in that sequence.

Van Patten: He insisted that he do that stunt. He was like stretching beforehand.

White: He was chomping at the bit. Oh, he was ready.

Was the end goal to find a way to use ‘Toxic” by Britney Spears to score the climax?

Oppenheimer: I love it so much. It’s really funny because since Season 1, I was, “When are we gonna use ‘Toxic’?” It’s just so perfect for the show. We were editing that scene and we were throwing different songs in, and we’d actually tried this other song that worked really well — “I Gotta Feeling” [by the Black Eyed Peas]. But then I was like, “Should we just try ‘Toxic’?” And my editor, Jen, was like, “It’s literally now or never.” The way that the music lines up with Evan crashing into the cake. It timed out perfectly.

Wrigley (Spencer House) and Bree (Catherine Missal), during a break from the engagement party, have a conversation about their relationship that leads to sex. (Ian Watson / Disney)

The night of his wedding to Bree, Evan (Branden Cook) learns about her affair with Wrigley. (Danielle Blancher / Disney)

How did you arrive at some of the other big moments, like Bree and Wrigley. She goes through with the wedding, but their secret is out. What happens next for them? It’s also like, is this trauma bonding or … ?

Oppenheimer: I don’t think it’s trauma bonding. I think they’re soul mates, personally. Trauma bonding is a thing, but there’s also something very real about meeting someone in a moment of grief and it has just taken all of your outer layer off, and it has exposed the real you. I think that’s what they’re seeing when they connect at the beginning of Season 3; they’re the truest version of themselves. I knew that I wanted it to come out because Evan could not get away with this. Evan could not have the happy marriage to Bree. Lucy had a choice that she was making with the full knowledge of the choice, but Bree doesn’t know all the things that Evan did to her to completely destroy her relationship with her mom. It would have felt so unfair for that to work out. I always saw that exploding and coming to light. That smile at the end of the wedding, that tells you they’re going to make this work. I literally wrote it into the action line of the script. I said, “Their eyes meet across the room, and they smile. And you get the sense that in spite of it all” — I think I wrote “carnage” — “they’re gonna find a way to make it work.” And I think they do.

White: I like happy endings, just as a viewer. I like when things work out for characters that didn’t really do anything bad. I love Wrigley and Bree. It’s a great relationship.

Van Patten: I love that relationship. I feel like they deserve each other and like they’re the two with the most well-rounded moral compass. They feel right together. And so do Pippa and Diana. They’re the only ones who are leaving happy, in the end. They’re like, “Let’s get out of here. We do not belong here.” And they just walk off. They kind of leave unscathed when everyone else is in the fire?

Grace Van Patten and Jackson White of “Tell Me Lies.”

(Dutch Doscher / For The Times)

Do you wish, especially as a real-life couple, that’s what you could have played?

Van Patten: I thought it was the perfect ending for these characters. If they ended up together and figured things out, it would just be so unrealistic. Look what these people have done to each other for the past three seasons. They’re not going to be OK together.

I guess I mean the whole trajectory, having to play the fictional couple that’s so toxic as you’re starting a relationship.

White: Yeah, not a lot of blending between work and real life.

Van Patten: Thank God. It’s only a nice, warm feeling to know we’re nothing like them. But it’s just fun acting together. We have to do crazy things and say crazy things. It’s very, very separated for us.

What do you hope for your characters?

White: I don’t hope much for him. I’m trying to think if I know anybody like that or with those tendencies — I do. I do know people who have a lot of similarities, and I pray for them, and I hope they do well. I also hope they get what’s coming to them. Actually let me take it to back because if somebody has wronged me, then I wish them the best. But for somebody like him, he’s sort of beyond that, isn’t he? I don’t know how to answer that question. I don’t know what I would want for him.

Van Patten: I hope that final instance that we see in the last episode pushes her into a journey of self-analysis and her really trying to figure out why she looks for that type of thing in a relationship, and why she has been so drawn to that. Hopefully she does the work to change that and focus on the relationships that matter, that she should be paying more attention to. I hope it’s the beginning for her.

On a final note, I will say, I was relieved to see Stephen at least left behind Lucy’s purse.

White: That’s pretty funny.

Van Patten: I wish there was footage of him placing it there. Like, him hopping out of the car and carefully placing it. I always wondered if he parked in a place where he can see Lucy, just to see her reaction.