better sister

The Emmys’ limited series/TV movie acting categories have come to represent some of the best and most-talked-about shows on television, and this year’s crop of contenders is no exception.

The seven actors who joined the 2025 Envelope Roundtable were Javier Bardem, who plays father, victim and alleged molester Jose Menendez in Netflix’s “Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story”; Renée Zellweger, who reprises her role as the British romantic heroine in “Bridget Jones: Mad About the Boy”; Stephen Graham, who co-created and stars in “Adolescence” as the father of a teenage boy who commits a heinous murder; Jenny Slate, who plays the best friend of a terminally ill woman in FX’s “Dying for Sex”; Brian Tyree Henry, who portrays a man posing as a federal agent in order to rip off drug dealers in Apple TV+’s “Dope Thief”; Elizabeth Banks, who takes on the role of an estranged sibling and recovering alcoholic in Prime Video’s “The Better Sister”; and Sacha Baron Cohen, who appears as the deceived husband of a successful filmmaker in Apple TV+’s “Disclaimer.”

The Times’ news and culture critic Lorraine Ali spoke to the group about the emotional fallout of a heavy scene, the art of defying expectations and more. Read highlights from their conversation below and watch video of the roundtable above.

The 2025 Limited Series / TV Movie Roundtable: Elizabeth Banks, left, Sacha Baron Cohen, Jenny Slate, Javier Bardem, Brian Tyree Henry, Renée Zellweger and Stephen Graham.

Many of you move between drama and comedy. People often think, “Drama’s very serious and difficult, comedy’s light and easy.” Is that true?

Banks: I think the degree of difficulty with comedy is much higher. It’s really hard to sustainably make people laugh over time, whereas [with] drama, everyone relates to loss and pining for love that’s unrequited. Not everybody has great timing or is funny or gets satire.

Henry: There’s something fun about how closely intertwined they are. In my series, I’m playing a heroin addict running for my life, and I have this codependency with this friend … There’s a scene where I’ve been looking for him, and I’m high out of my mind, and I find him in my attic, and all he’s talking about is how he has to take a s—. And I’m like, “But they’re trying to kill us.” You just see him wincing and going through all these [groans]. It is so funny, but at the same time, you’re just terrified for both. There’s always humor somewhere in the drama.

Banks: There’s a reason why the theater [symbol] is a happy face/sad face. They’re very intertwined.

Renée Zellweger of “Bridget Jones: Mad About the Boy.”

Renée, with Bridget Jones — how has she changed over the last 25 years and where is she now with “Mad About the Boy”?

Zellweger: Nobody’s the same from one moment to the next, one chapter to the next and certainly not from one year to the next. It’s been a really interesting sort of experiment to revisit a character in the different phases of her life.

What I’m really grateful for is that the timing runs in parallel to the sort of experiences that you have in your early 20s, 30s and so on. With each iteration, I don’t have to pretend that I’m less than I am, because I don’t want to be the character that I was, or played, when she was 29, 35. I don’t want to do that, and I certainly don’t want to do that now.

So it was really nice to meet her again in this place of what she’s experiencing in the moment, which is bereavement and the loss of her great love, and being a mom, and trying to be responsible, and reevaluating what she values, and how she comports herself, and what’s important and all of that, because, of course, I relate to that in this moment.

Stephen, “Adolescence” follows a family dealing with the fallout of their 13-year-old son being accused of a brutal murder. You direct and star in the series. What was it like being immersed in such heavy subject matter? Did it come home with you?

Graham: We did that first episode, the end of it was quite heavy and quite emotional. When we said, “Cut,” all of us older actors and the crew were very emotional. There were hugs and a bit of applause.

And then everyone would be like, “Where’s Owen?” [Cooper, the teenage actor who plays Graham’s character’s son]. “Is Owen OK? Is he with his child psychologist?” No, Owen’s upstairs playing swing ball with his tutor. It was like OK, that’s the way to do this — not to take myself too seriously when we say, “Cut,” but when I am there, immerse myself in it.

Let’s be honest, we can all be slightly self-obsessed. My missus, she’s the best for me because I’d phone her and say, “I had a really tough day. I had to cry all day. My wife’s died of cancer, and it was a really tough one.” She goes, “The dog s— all over the living room. I had to go shopping and the f— bag split when I got to Tesco. There was a flat tire. They’ve let the kids out of school early because there’s been a flood. And you’ve had a hard day pretending to be sad?”

Bardem: I totally agree with what Stephen says. You have a life with your family and your children that you have to really pay attention to. This is a job, and you just do the job as good as you can with your own limitations. You put everything into it when they say, “Action,” and when you’re out, you just leave it behind. Otherwise, it’s too much.

Certain scenes, certain moments stay with you because we work with what we are. But I think it doesn’t make you a better actor to really stay in character, as they say, for 24 hours. That doesn’t work for me. It actually makes me feel very confused if I do that.

On the show “Monsters” I tried to protect Cooper [Koch] and Nicholas [Alexander Chavez], the actors who play the children, because they were carrying the heavy weight on the show every day. I was trying to make them feel protected and loved and accompanied by us, the adults, and let them know that we are there for them and that this is fiction. Because they were going really deep into it, and they did an amazing job.

Elizabeth Banks of “The Better Sister.”

Elizabeth, in “The Better Sister,” you portray Nicky, a sister estranged from her sibling who’s been through quite a bit of her own trauma.

Banks: I play a drunk who’s lost her child and her husband, basically, to her little sister, played by Jessica Biel. She is grappling with trauma from her childhood, which she’s trying not to bring forward. She’s been working [with] Alcoholics Anonymous, an incredible program, to get through her stuff. But she’s also a fish out of water when she visits her sister, who [lives in a] very rarefied New York, literary, fancy rich world. My character basically lives in a trailer park in Ohio. There’s a lot going on. And there’s a murder mystery.

I loved the complication … but it brought up all of those things for me. I do think you absolutely leave most of that [heaviness] on set. You are mining it all for the character work, so you’ve got to find it, but I don’t need to then infect my own children with it.

Sacha Baron Cohen of “Disclaimer.”

Sacha, you have played and created these really gregarious characters like Ali G or Borat. Your character in “Disclaimer,” he’s not a character you created, but he is very understated. Was that a challenge?

Cohen: It took me a long time to work out who the character was. I said to [director] Alfonso [Cuarón], “I don’t understand why this guy goes on that journey from where we see him in Act 1.” For me it was, how do you make this person unique?

We worked a lot through the specificity of what words he uses and what he actually says to explain and give hints for me as an actor. A lot of that was Alfonso Cuarón saying, “Take it down.” And there was a lot of rewriting and loads of drafts before I even understood how this guy reacts to the news and information that he believes about his wife.

Jenny Slate of “Dying for Sex.”

Jenny, “Dying for Sex” is based on a true story about two friends. One has terminal cancer, and the other — your character — supports her right up until the end. Talk about what it was like to play that role in a series that alternates between biting humor and deep grief.

Slate: Michelle Williams, who does a brilliant job in this show, her energy is extending outward and [her character] is trying to experiment before she does the greatest experiment of all, which is to cross over into the other side. My character is really out there, not out there willy-nilly, but she will yell at people if they are being rude, wasteful or if she feels it’s unjust. [And she’s] going from blasting to taking all that energy and making it this tight laser, and pointing it right into care, and knowing more about herself at the end.

I am a peppy person, and I felt so excited to have the job that a lot of my day started with calming myself down. I’m at work with Michelle Williams and Sissy Spacek and Liz Meriwether and Shannon Murphy and being, like, “Siri, set a meditation timer for 10 minutes,” and making myself do alternate nostril breathing [exercises].

Brian Tyree Henry of “Dope Thief.”

Brian, many people came to know you from your role as Paper Boi in “Atlanta.” The series was groundbreaking and like nothing else on television. What was it like moving out of that world and onto other projects?

Henry: People really thought that I was this rapper that they pulled off the street from Atlanta. To me, that’s the greatest compliment … When I did “Bullet Train,” I was shocked at how many people thought I was British. I was like, “Oh, right. Now I’ve twisted your mind this way.” I was [the voice of] Megatron at one point, and now I’ve twisted your mind that way. My path in is always going to be stretching people’s imaginations, because they get so attached to characters that I’ve played that they really believe that I’m that person.

People feel like they have an ownership of who you are. I love the challenge of having to force the imaginations of the viewers and myself to see me in a departure [from] what they saw me [as] previously. Because I realize that when I walk in a room, before I even open my mouth, there’s 90 different things that are put on me or taken away from me because of how I look and how I carry myself.

Javier Bardem of “Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story.”

Javier, since doing the series are you now frequently asked about your own opinions on the Menendez case? The brothers claim their father molested them, and that is in part what led to them murdering their parents.

Bardem: I don’t think anybody knows. That’s the point. That was the great thing about playing that character, is you have to play it in a way that it’s not obvious that he did those things that he was accused of, because nobody knows, but at the same time you have to make people believe that he was capable.

I did say to Ryan [Murphy] that I can’t do a scene with a kid. Because in the beginning, they do drafts, and there were certain moments where I said, “I can’t. It’s not needed.” The only moment that I had a hard time was when [Jose] has to face [his] young kid. It was only a moment where Jose was mean to him. That’s not in my nature.

Henry: I discovered, while doing my series, “My body doesn’t know this isn’t real.” There’s an episode where I’m shot in the leg, and I’m bleeding out and I’m on all this different morphine and drugs and all this stuff, and I’m literally lying on this ground, take after take, having to mime this. To go through the delusion of this pain … in the middle of the takes, it was just so crazy. I would literally look at the crew and say, “Somebody hug me! Somebody!”

Stephen, that scene where you confront the boys in the parking lot with the bike, I was just like, “Oh, my God, how many times did he have to do that?” This kid gets in your face, and I was like, “Punch the kid!” My heart went out to you, man, not just as the character but as you being in there.

Graham: Because we did it all in one take, we had that unique quality. You’re using the best of two mediums. You’ve got that beauty and that spontaneity and that reality of the theater, and then you have the naturalism and the truth that we have with film and television. So by the time I get to that final bit, we’ve been through all those emotions. When I open the door and go into [Jamie’s] room, everything’s shaken. But it’s not you. It’s an out-of-body experience and just comes from somewhere else.

Bardem: Listen, we don’t do brain surgery, but let’s give ourselves some credit. We are generous in what we do because we are putting our bodies into an experience. We are doing this for something bigger than us, and that is the story that we’re telling.

What have been some of the more challenging or difficult moments for you, either in your career or your recent series?

Zellweger: Trying not to do what you’re feeling in the moment sometimes, because it’s not appropriate to what you’re telling. That happens in most shows, most things that you do. I think everybody experiences it where you’re bringing something from home and it doesn’t belong on the set. It’s impossible to leave it behind when you walk in because it’s bigger than you are in that moment.

Banks: I would say that the thing that I worked on the most for “The Better Sister” was [understanding] sobriety. I’m not sober. I love a bubbly rosé. So it really did bring up how much I think about drinking and how social it is and what that ritual is for me, and how this character is thinking about it every day and deciding every day to stay sober or not. I am also a huge fan of AA and sobriety programs. I think they’re incredible tools for everybody who works those programs. I was grateful for the access to all of that as I was making the series. But that’s what you get to do in TV. You get to explore episode by episode. You get to play out a lot more than just three acts.

Stephen Graham of “Adolescence.”

Stephen, about the continuous single shot. It seems like it’s an incredibly difficult and complex way to shoot a series. Why do it?

Graham: It’s exceptionally difficult, I’m not going to lie. It’s like a swan glides across the water beautifully, but the legs are going rapidly underneath. A lot of it is done in preparation. We spend a whole week learning the script, and then the second week is just with the camera crew and the rest of the crew. It’s a choreography that you work out, getting an idea of where they want the camera to go, and the opportunity to embody the space ourselves.

Cohen: That reminds me of a bit of doing the undercover movies that I do because you have one take. … I did a scene where I’m wearing a bulletproof vest. There were a lot of the people in the audience who’d gone to this rally, a lot of them had machine guns. We knew they were going to get angry, but you’ve got to do the scene. You’ve got one time to get the scene right. But you also go, “OK, those guys have got guns. They’re trying to storm the stage. I haven’t quite finished the scene. When do I leave?” But you’ve got to get the scene. I could get shot, but that’s not important.

Henry: There’s a certain level of sociopathy.

Slate: I feel like I’m never on my mark, and it was always a very kind camera operator being like, “Hey, Jenny, you weren’t in the shot shoulder-wise.” I feel like such an idiot. Part of it is working through lifelong, longstanding feelings of “I’m a fool and my foolishness is going to make people incredibly angry with me.” And then really still wanting to participate and having no real certainty that I’m going to be able to do anything but just make all of my fears real. Part of the thing that I love about performance is I just want to experience the version of myself that does not collapse into useless fragments when I face the thing that scares me the most. I do that, and then I feel the appetite for performance again.

Do you see yourself in roles when you’re watching other people’s films or TV show?

Graham: At the end of the day, we’re all big fans of acting. That’s why we do it. Because when we were young, we were inspired by people on the screen, or we were inspired by places where we could put ourselves and lose our imaginations.

We have a lot of t— in this industry. But I think if we fight hard enough, we can come through. Do you know what I mean? It’s people that are here for the right reasons. It’s a collective. Acting is not a game of golf. It’s a team. It’s in front and it’s behind the camera. I think it’s important that we nourish that.

Henry: And remember that none of us are t—.

Bardem: What is a t—? I may be one of them and I don’t know it.

Graham: I’ll explain it to you later.

Things got heated between Elizabeth Banks and Jessica Biel last summer. Sweat was poured. Scores were settled. Justin Timberlake even got involved.

The intense showdowns occurred on a New York City padel court when the women had days off from filming their new Prime Video limited series, “The Better Sister,” now streaming. Squaring off in the increasingly popular racquet sport, the actors, along with Biel’s husband, Timberlake, and Banks’ husband, Max Handelman, “had a blast kicking each other’s asses,” Biel said.

Back on “The Better Sister” set, Banks and Biel were happy to play on the same team. There, they both served as stars and executive producers, and they praised the collaborative, ego-free environment overseen by showrunners Olivia Milch and Regina Corrado. (Though their competitive streak did continue with between-takes Bananagrams.)

“This was a group of, frankly, a lot of moms, who were like, ‘We don’t have time for nonsense. We want our crew home to have dinner with their families,’ ” Banks said. “There was a lot of mutual respect going on, but then we all demanded the best from each other.”

The eight-episode whodunit, adapted from the 2019 novel by Alafair Burke, is a twisty, Shakespearean tale: Two estranged sisters, the glamorous, successful Chloe (Biel) and the recovering addict Nicky (Banks), are thrust back together when Chloe’s husband, Adam (Corey Stoll) — who used to be Nicky’s husband — is murdered. When Nicky and Adam’s son, Ethan (Maxwell Acee Donovan) — who was raised by Chloe and Adam — is arrested for the crime, the sisters must untangle a web of family secrets and betrayal. Yeah, it’s complicated.

Elizabeth Banks, top, and Jessica Biel in a scene from “The Better Sister.”

(Jojo Whilden / Prime Video)

“So many shows I’ve written on are about muscular, macho men doing violent things to each other,” said Corrado, whose past work includes “Sons of Anarchy” and “Deadwood.” “But I think the scariest thing is women in this space and the intimate damage we can do to each other, particularly as sisters.”

While Biel, 43, and Banks, 51, both rose to prominence as actors, they’ve been increasingly expanding their resumes behind the camera. Over the past decade, Banks has directed films, including “Cocaine Bear,” “Pitch Perfect 2” and the 2019 “Charlie’s Angels” reboot, and produced numerous projects under her and Handelman’s Brownstone Productions banner.

Biel has likewise segued into producing with her company, Iron Ocean, which backed the psychological thriller series “Cruel Summer,” “The Sinner” and “Candy,” the latter two in which she also starred. (Biel is also in early development on a reboot of “7th Heaven,” the ‘90s series on which she got her start as the rebellious Mary Camden, though she won’t reprise her role.)

For Biel, those recent thriller projects, along with “The Better Sister,” speak to what she finds “endlessly interesting.” “Why do humans do the things that they do?” she said. “When you’re pressed up against the wall and you’re fighting for your life or to keep your kids safe, what would you do? How far would you go?”

In a joint video interview, Banks and Biel discussed making “The Better Sister” and their decades of experience that led them here. These are edited excerpts from the conversation, which includes a few spoilers.

What initially attracted you to “The Better Sister” and your specific roles?

Biel: I first read for the Nicky part, and I was definitely interested in it. Then, a couple days later, I got the call saying, “They want you for Chloe.” When I heard that Elizabeth was talking to them about Nicky, I was like, oh, yes. This makes more sense to me now. I’ve also heard for a million years that we look like sisters.

Banks: I had never heard a bad word about Jessica Biel in the industry. She was known as kind, generous, talented, a great collaborator, easy to be around. And I thought, well, that sounds easy and fun. Craig Gillespie, who directed our pilot, got on with me and said, “I want you to be a mess, Banks. It needs more humor, and you’ll be funny.” He sold me on this messy Nicky, in contrast to Jessica, and I thought that sounded like a great idea all across the board.

“I love that I got to reset my career, and I’ve been able to do it multiple times,” said Elizabeth Banks, who has starred in comedies and dramas onscreen.

(Annie Noelker / For The Times)

Elizabeth, as an actor, you’ve received the most recognition for your comedic roles, but you’ve been focused lately on quieter, dramatic parts. Is that a direction you’d always hoped to go in?

Banks: It’s interesting. I started my career in a lot of dramas. Man, I remember making “Seabiscuit.” It was nominated for seven Academy Awards. It was very serious fare, and I was put in that [dramatic] box early on. It honestly took making “The 40-Year-Old Virgin” to even clue people in that I was funny. Like, I knew I was. I thought I was going to come in and do rom-coms, but when I started making films, it wasn’t a skill that was asked of me. I love that I got to reset my career, and I’ve been able to do it multiple times.

The very title of this series, “The Better Sister,” pits these two women against each other. How have you seen that comparison game play out in your own experiences in this industry?

Biel: You’re constantly compared. At least back in the day, it felt like people were trying to keep women away from each other. You’d sit in an audition room, and there would be this energy because your agents and managers would have made you feel like these women are your competition. There really was a feeling of ”you are against everybody, and everybody is against you.” I feel like that’s changed so much, but this industry is cutthroat. I have a lot of real experience in feeling less than, feeling judged, feeling like the industry has been putting their thumb on top of you, and you have to fight, fight, fight for every opportunity.

Banks: I had a similar experience coming up as an ingénue. There’s a scarcity mentality, like there’s only so many roles. Now we have all of this incredible data, like what the Geena Davis Institute has collected, about women’s roles in Hollywood. At some point, I just looked around and thought, the numbers are against me. The very first film I ever made [“Wet Hot American Summer”] was with Paul Rudd and Bradley Cooper, and they went on to play superheroes. I’m never going to get that, especially once I got over a certain age. You start to understand that it’s systemic, and it is a numbers game. You can keep playing that game, or you can do what so many incredible women have done before me, which is create your own opportunities.

I know that we are encouraging the next generation because I made a movie with them called “Bottoms.” Emma Seligman, Rachel Sennott and Ayo Edebiri, they’re doing it now. They’re going to make their own stuff, and it’s incredible. I think the industry has changed because women changed it. I just want to make sure that we have actually learned the lessons, and we are creating the opportunities.

Biel: I really do hope it is different and better and more fair and more loving because, man, it was hard.

One of the big themes in this show is trust. This idea of, can we trust our family? Can we trust our partners? Can we trust the police? Can we trust our memories? Did working on this show make you question anything about your own realities?

Banks: My father served in Vietnam, and we never talked about it when I was a kid. Vietnam vets suffered when they came back. America was not interested in them. What does that do to people’s psyches that had served their country and now they’re being spit at? This brought up a lot of those notions for me about how little you actually know your parents when you’re a child and how the layers come out the older you get.

I was the older sister, and I was able to protect my younger sister from the version of my father that I knew. He didn’t give that version to her because he and my mom had learned a lesson about what was going on with him. I’m 11 years older than my brother. He did not get the same version of my parents that I did.

“Where I parallel a little bit in Chloe’s world is this weird, naive trust of police,” Jessica Biel said about her character. “It’s interesting watching Elizabeth in the scenes where she’s expressing Nicky’s feelings about, ‘Don’t trust these people. Don’t give them anything.’ ”

(Annie Noelker / For The Times)

Biel: Where I parallel a little bit in Chloe’s world is this weird, naive trust of police. It’s interesting watching Elizabeth in the scenes where she’s expressing Nicky’s feelings about, “Don’t trust these people. Don’t give them anything.” I was wondering if I have those same thoughts that Chloe does, where I would just offer up information that I shouldn’t because I trust that they’re here to protect me. Would I be in a situation where I would not be taking care of myself or my family members because I felt obligated to almost please this police department who is supposed to help me?

So, [I was] trying to understand that system a little bit better, alongside all the questions you have about your parents and what version you got as a child. My brother and I are three years apart, but I was working when I was really young, and he wasn’t. He was at home. I basically abandoned him. But I was so self-absorbed, I didn’t think about it in that way. I just was doing what was my passion. I know he had a very different experience in our family than I did. I feel nervous to talk to him about it sometimes because I have guilt around that. He was in my shadow, and I left him.

Spoilers for the final episodes — we ultimately learn that Nicky killed Adam, and that reveal puts everything we’ve seen her do thus far in a different light. Elizabeth, what went into playing a character who’s keeping a huge secret from everyone, including the audience, for so long?

Banks: Look, I literally say right after he gets arrested, “Tell them it was me. I’ll say I did it.” But nobody’s going to believe her. I was actually always thinking about “Presumed Innocent,” the original [film], where she knows all along that she can make him free. Ethan’s not going to jail. Nicky was willing and ready every minute of this entire series to offer herself up and say, “I’m going to jail for this. I did it.” I think she almost expects that it’s where her life is supposed to go — but she also can’t let Adam win. So, there is a lot of strategy going on for Nicky. She’s playing chess, and she’s playing the long game, and poor Chloe is not in on any of it.

Chloe then ends up framing Adam’s boss for the murder in the finale. Jessica, how did you feel about that decision and the motivations around it?

Biel: It felt to me that it was what had to happen. Because once it’s revealed that Adam set Nicky up and pushed those drugs on her, and she’s not this horrific mom, her son was not in danger — that realization for Chloe is just like — oh, my God — everything that she has done has been in vain. She ruined her sister’s life. She’s taken over being the mother of this child. For what? It’s all a lie. So, when all of that comes out, that is the moment where she is 100% loyal to Nicky. They are officially in it together. Now she has to protect Nicky in order to protect Ethan, and to do that, we need somebody to take the blame for this because we are all culpable. Everybody is playing their part, and nobody is innocent.

Elizabeth Banks and Maxwell Acee Donovan, who plays her son Ethan in the series.

(Jojo Whilden / Prime Video)

There’s a line in the show to the effect of, “Nothing ever really disappears,” whether that’s because of the stories that people tell about us or the permanence of the internet. Is there a story or project that’s followed you around that you wish would go away?

Biel: I’m sure you could dig up some stuff about me, and I would probably be like, “Oh, yeah, that wasn’t the best choice.” But you have to fall on your face, look like an idiot, sound like an idiot and get back up and go, “All right, won’t do that again.” I don’t know where I would be if I didn’t stumble around a little bit. I don’t want to be stumbling around too much anymore at this age.

On the flip side, what past chapter of your life are you the most proud of?

Banks: I really am proud that I was able to use the opportunity that came during “The Hunger Games,” where I had this guaranteed work with these big movies. I started my family then, and I started my directing career then, and it was because I wasn’t out there shaking it trying to make a living. It was a real gift to have some security for a hot minute because it allowed me to look around and go, is this what I really want? What are my priorities? What opportunities can I pursue while I have this security? I’m proud that I took advantage of it.

Biel: I think back in my early 20s, taking the opportunity to start my little [production] company [with co-founder Michelle Purple], which was dumb and small and lame for like 10 years. We didn’t make anything, and it was a disaster. But we hustled, I took control and said I’m going to start making headway to make things for me. I’m not going to just sit and wait for a phone call from my agents, which is what I had been told to do. I started procuring material and working with writers and learning how to develop them. Now, my little company is making some stuff, which is cool.

Neither of you come from industry families. Did you feel like outsiders stepping into that world?

Banks: I still feel like an outsider.

Biel: I was going to say the same thing!

Banks: I know my worth, and I know what I’ve earned, so I don’t have impostor syndrome anymore. But I do feel like there’s a party in Hollywood that I’m not necessarily on the inside of. It keeps me scrappy, to be honest.

Biel: It also keeps you from getting lost in the sauce. You’re not paying so much attention to everybody else or what you’re not getting. It’s a good mindset to be in because you just focus on what you’re doing. When I’m outputting creatively, that’s what fuels me. The joy is in doing it.